To think long term affairs are like a form of fraud really

[paddleboardingmum]

Or a scam or something? Yet another of my friends has been cheated on (long marriage, teenage kids) in a situation where he's been in an affair for years. By doing that you're not only living a lie but really it's conning the other person isn't it? I'm not saying it should be a crime as such, just thinking about the deceit factor with this type of situation.

I recall something on the radio where some women are campaigning to be able to sue men who enter relationships with them with the intention of having children, but they don't.
They want to be able to sue for losing fertile years to a man who lied to them.

I think it is a slippery slope to go down.

Exactly. My best friend pretended she enjoyed camping because she really wanted to get married and was willing to tell 'white lies' to do so. Light hearted example of course but who really knows another person?

I've just come back from a fabulous break with my best friend. The second night I could not be arsed going out, but my friend doesn't know this, he just thinks we had a fab night. I wasn't feeling it but didn't want to be boring so went along. He's gay btw so no sexual implications.

That’s most early sexual encounters, isn’t it? People (men usually, let’s face it) will conceal all kinds of red flags just to shag you.

That's different from a marriage though where you've made a very public and serious legal commitment which includes monogamy. Someone shagging around behind your back is putting you at risk of an sti. It's also the damage to mental health as pp have said. Such a breach of trust. It's one thing to do that for say a few weeks - bad enough- but for years? that's just cruel and selfish.

I think some affairs are justified. If the woman is being abused and it enables her to exit the marriage I’m ok with that.

Surely a fairly rare situation and also an abused woman might not be in the best place to find a great man, especially one who's willing to have an affair?

An abused woman is vulnerable, and I think it would be poor of someone else to take advantage of that to be seen as "rescuing" her no matter how well intentioned.

It is abuse. Gaslighting. Fraud. Risk of life changing STDs. It causes mental health issues and destroys/damages so many people. You cannot give informed consent to sex if your husband or wife is cheating.

I believe that it should be taken into consideration in divorce. Marriage is a contract and cheating breaks that contract. This should mean financial compensation in a divorce.

I do believe certain personality traits are found in cheaters (inability to self soothe, avoids confrontation and requires smoke up the behind to feel ok about oneself are three such traits).

And as a society we do not educate people on the damage it causes. It is portrayed as fun and sexy and acceptable. So many children’s lives are affected by a cheating parent. I dare not think what impact it has economically - lost hours at work, benefits due to separation etc.

Also so many men don’t actually want to leave their wives - it’s bonkers tbh. Who are the ladies still failing for ‘my wife is mean and nasty and doesn’t understand me’ it’s the oldest line in the book surely. Is there a way to educate people? Gottmans work is fantastic and maybe it should be taught in schools. Relationships can be improved and there are formulas and strategies - but not everyone will find the resources themself.

I would like society to call out cheating more. If we all spoke up and didn't let the partners waste years of their life in the dark, they could at least have some control and choice about their own life, children, houses etc.
It's shit when your life was a joke and everyone knew.

I would not date a man who cheated on his wife. I’d leave the date if I found out. There’s no excuse that would satisfy me or allow me to risk a further date. Poor impulse control, okay with lying, doesn’t believe in his stated values - it’s so unattractive!

You'd have to really clearly define marriage in order to put in place penalties or remediation, and that can be hars because people marry for all kinds of reasons.
You could say that marriage is a like business contract where both parties are like Directors of the family. In that situation, where someone has acted in ways to undermine Family Inc there could be legal effects.
Or you could say marriage is purely defined as a romantic love agreement in which I sign over shares of my love to you or vice versa. That seems a bit silly to me.

At the end of the day, whether they divorce you before or after the affair, you will still be divorced with all the life and finance change that entails. To me its a heartache, an emotional rather than moral or legal thing, but heartaches heal.

If you deem it a fraud, a reasonable view of things, then it should be acceptable for an affair between two people who work together to be fair grounds for dismissal.

Even if you are not spotted at a Coldplay concert.

I disagree with your last sentences. It absolutely does ruin the entire memory of the relationship. It rewrites history. My XH married me and got me pregnant while having the 2-3 year affair. I cannot bear to think about my wedding let alone look at photos. It poisons all the memories, makes you doubt everything and you never know what was real and what was not. When he smiled at me that time was he really happy with me or was he thinking of her? Was he thinking of her when we conceived? Did he go to loo to go to the loo or was he sneaking off to text her? Did he not come to that thing because he really had to work or was he with her? It's the biggest headfuck.

It is physical too - I had dents in my fingernails, my heart rate was elevated for weeks. I was pregnant when I found out so, and this may be a major leap, but our child has a variety of (mild) issues and I can't help wondering if all that adrenaline, grief and upset in the womb had an effect. Also having to find a new house while pregnant and poor, living alone while pregnant and then with the baby.

Stole my planned future an all memories of our relationship and the ability to ever trust. Married me fraudulently, had sex with me fraudulently, made a baby with me fraudulently. And no penalties for him.

Awful that you were put through that @RamsaySnowsSausage

Are you able to be civil to him? If so, you're a better woman than me.

What penalty would be fair? And who would try the case and how? I'm sorry you suffered but you just have to move on.

Playing Russian Roulette with someone’s health is unforgivable in my opinion.
Having an affair while still sleeping with your husband / wife / partner risking all types of STD’s . Disgraceful

I met a woman in her 60s whose husband had just left her for a woman, a neighbour, that he had been shagging for 20 years. Apparently both he and the OW had decided they wouldn't leave their partners unless one partner died, which is what happened. He acted like it was some caring thing he had done, to not leave sooner, but if he had left 20 years prior then she could have made a life for herself.
It is a form of fraud, especially in marriage, because isn't it one of the things people vow, to forsake all others? (puts on hard hat in preparation for responses)

The deceit is worse than the affair really. How much do you have to hate someone to use them and lie to them. The realisation that you meant nothing to them is what really hurts.

It's a form of theft - the theft of choice, the theft of time, the theft of energy, and often the theft of money too, diverted from the spouse and family to the affair partner.

I think it should be criminal - the effects cost society money. Health issues can arise, both physical and mental, when the truth is found out or suspected. The psychological impact can be huge.

The financial hit a spouse and children absorb can be devastating when divorce becomes inevitable (of course there is the option to grin and bear it, as someone I know did, for ten years until the kids left home, with horrible consequences for her mental health, and her relationship with her children when they were told. Comprehensive deceit is a life altering injury.

There should be a way to sue for civil damages, as a pp suggested.

The elimination of fault based divorce in favour of no-fault was an unwise move imo.

There was a case last year in the US that went viral where a judge ruled that the husband cheating and knowingly passing STIs onto his wife constituted domestic violence. The woman was awarded 100% of marital assets as restitution for this and, as I recall, walked away with a significant amount.

Serves the lying, cheating scum right. 😏

If either person is being abused (and it happens), the, yes, an affair is justified.

The sex without knowing the full facts is sex without consent. If a woman has sex with a man she does not know has just returned from a tryst with a woman or a man they're either having an affair with or a one night stand or that sexual encounter was transactional, she had her right to consent in full possession of her partner's sexual activity denied her. Would she have consented to sex if she had known her husband was, for instance, frequenting the bed of a man who also had sex with other men in public loos? Or would she have said no? Stolen sex is a crime.

That is a crime just as sex with an intentionally damaged condom is.

Weasly words followed by an admission that you have no idea what you're talking about.

The revelation of the truth taints every minute of the life you've led. It changes all the memories when you realise the person who was beside you as you delivered his babies and celebrated children's birthdays was using you as a beard, that your life, your hopes, your expectations of being loved and cherished and appreciated, and the sacrifices you made didn't matter one bit to him, but you were used. Worse, you brought children into the mess without realizing that they would not have the family life you hoped to give them.

But as his wife doesn't know, then he is having an affair. My friend is open about it but he isn't.

A few years into the relationship my friend and her "partner" set up a business together so she has now met his wife on several occasions. I think he is despicable in what he's doing.

I agree on the consent issue. Esp as the marriage vows clearly state this, when you date someone you at some point have an "exclusive" chat, from that point onwards sex is only consensual if the rule is followed. I absolutely think it can also be a form of domestic violence.

I dont know if we should criminalise it but it should be more frowned on socially

I agree, I went away on a sports camp some years ago and was introduced to the charming boyfriend of an acquaintance at our house share, spent some hours in his company at meals etc. and only found out months later that he is actually married, and I've effectively been made complicit in their deception without my knowledge or consent.