School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

Fgs schools can’t do right for doing wrong. It’s walking between classes with a 5 minute grace. They have been making allowances. Stop enabling her. This is why schools are in the mess they are in. School have been supportive with allowing extra time. She gets there within the 5 minutes or she’s punished. What do you think would happen at work for persistent lateness??

Did you mean she's actually going out the school building between lessons instead of on to class? Are you positive she isn't vaping?

Even if she is ND, she shouldn't be detouring off outside between classes

Yet the frustrating thing is, schools try to bring in rules to make corridors quieter to allow children like your DD to manage..... and parents don't like it and say its draconian!

Just guessing but allowing kids with SEND to leave a classroom early to get to the next lesson is definitely a thing. But only in a very small number of applicable cases. The school must think this adjustment is not necessary for your child.

go back and have a non adversarial conversation with them. Do they have any suspicions re additional need that would help your case for diagnosis ? Are there any other times she can’t cope with busy corridors, or is she fine leaving the classrooms at break / lunch / home time? (If she’s fine at those times, you can see why they’d be suspicious that it’s not a needed adjustment).

This is so funny, my friend who also has adhd is sat by me on train and said EXACTLY the same thing re only doing what they want to and have to! She gets on well with a pretty high powered job because it has absolutely hard deadlines that she cannot miss, so she gets stuff done.

I do sometimes wonder if we think the softening of deadlines/making allowances is the answer but in fact, given time to get used to it, firm boundaries might really help more.

Executive function the school needs to gen up on that and support.

You would be better moving this to the SEN boards OP.

Two things that jump out at me. You do not need a diagnosis for support. And you are not asking for allowances you are asking for reasonable adjustments, is your dd on the send register and have you met with senco?

I would advise reading the Sen code of practice (the law) and your school’s behaviour policy (their guiding document they should follow) Everything goes back to the behaviour policy which should include reasonable adjustments to help students meet the rules / expectations. From my experience it’s unlikely they’ll let your DD arrive late, they might let her leave early tho.

Contact SENDIASS which is Special Educational Needs and Disability Information, Advice and Support Service. They’re great at helping parents navigate the education system in cases like this.

Not helpful if they refuse to do it but my similar sounding DD has a leave early pass so leaves each lesson 3 mins early to not be late for the next one. She does have a diagnosis but not an echp. Just if you are looking for things to suggest I think the schools view is it's less disruptive for someone to sneak out early than turn up late.

Utter bull! 🤣🤣

Are you saying you’ve never come across a pupil, friend or colleague who seemed a bit ‘odd’ compared to the rest of the gang? I bet you’re one of those NT people who judge others based on your own behaviours and if others are different, they’re the ones who must be failing.

My DS is diagnosed with Autism. It’s clear that myself and DH also have many of the same traits. Once I thought about it, I realised my dad (rip) also had those traits and he was a pilot in WW2. I used to assume that his mathematical brilliance and obsessions etc. were due to trauma from the war, but now I can clearly see he was also Autistic.

Presumably, based on your logic, no-one in the long distant past ever died of a rare cancer or other disease as it couldn’t possibly exist until a doctor discovered it and named it, in the 20th century. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I'm a mum to an 5yo with ASD and we have had a couple of issues in school. You're taking the wrong approach with this. If you've been dealing with this for 3 years and the wait list for ADHD assessment is 18m you should have started the process to get support a long time ago.
You need to work collaboratively with the school. Take responsibility and set up a meeting. Control the narrative of the meeting, "i'm here because I want to discuss x,y,z, be solution focused" - what can you do to help and what can the school do. What does your daughter think can help? Does she need to speak to a child psychologist to talk about her anxiety. I really don't think you've made much effort here OP and I say this as a SEN mum with a full time job. DS got diagnosed at 3, we've seen psychiatrist, psychologist, OT, meetings with school, nutrionist, neurologist and just about anyone who may be able to help. You are not helping your daughter or yourself by focusing on the negatives. If you're stuck with how to frame the meeting, put it into chatgpt, explain the problem and the outcome you want (daughter on time for class) see what suggestions and talking points it throws up.
Be proactive. If your daughter is overwhelmed by the noise she may have sensory issues - OT can help with determining a sensory profile if needed. I strongly suspect my 5yo has ADHD like his dad but they don't test for it here until age 7 so in the meantime we work with other practitioners to help - OT makes a big difference.

• She told us that the current waiting time for NHS assessments is around 4 years. Part of the problem is a national shortage of practitioners able to do the assessments*

There's a shortage of practitioners because they all realised they could make £1-2k a pop doing private work.

If every body stopped paying for private assessments and cut off that revenue, you would probably find they would all have to go to doing NHS work to pay the bills & voila.

The problem, is the NHS will prioritise based on need, and wealthy middle class parents aren't willing to wait behind the poor kid who's needs are more urgent.

Just a giant handhold. My 15yo was diagnosed last year, and it has been so tough trying to get accommodations in place. The system is not set up for ND kids and there’s a real range of understanding / empathy / ability to do something within schools.

It’s really hard bumping repeatedly on the attitude that there’s a simple solution - that the child can ‘just’ do this or that. They can’t. That’s the whole point.

I hope she and you get the support you need.

Quick note on diagnosis, now that my son is medicated for ADHD there are autism traits coming to the fore, so worth having both be part of the diagnostic process when you get there.

@KateSixer another person with zero understanding or empathy for SEN children. Behaviour is not a choice with SEN kids, if they don't do something it's because they can't.
Hopefully your attitude is a generational one that dies out.
My DH clearly has some neurodiversity but his parents chose to ignore it growing up and had the same attitude as you. Consequently he's had long term depression, a mental breakdown, a period of 6 wks in a psychiatric clinic and low self esteem. His family have never really accepted him for who he is or recognised his struggles. "Pull yourself together" doesn't really cut it. Thankfully he's estranged from most of them and better for it. He's also the most successful person in his family by miles and in part that is down to his ND. So fed up with the hostility towards SEN children, people - its disgusting.

I have ADHD. Not a recent diagnosis. Your classic, usually-seen-in-boys naughty, disruptive, disorganised, distracted style ADHD that caused me to be diagnosed as a teen (I’m now nearly 40). Severe, especially in childhood. I found timekeeping incredibly hard, and still get sensory overwhelm frequently.

My parents said to me, before and after diagnosis, if you find it harder than your friends, you have to work harder than your friends. They said your goals are yours to achieve if you’re willing to work hard and overcome the challenges. It’s that accountability that helped me take control of my life. I work in a professional job for a law firm now.

The diagnosis helps me understand how my brain works, then I make my own accommodations to make sure I can succeed.

It’s not real life to expect to be allowed to be late. I’d be fired! It wouldn’t be fair on my colleagues. It’s really fucking hard all the time, but everyone has their thing that makes life hard in one way or another.

It might sound harsh, but that’s my experience.

She has the alloted time to get to lessons plus a 5 minute grace period. What is she doing in this time? What is there to organise? She only has to walk from one classroom to the next.

I agree with school. Everybody is looking for an excuse as to why they should be treated differently.

Look I am very sorry about your husband.

But the best life chances for people with any neuro diversity (although I dislike that word as everyone is different and has their own issues to deal with) is to fit in with "normal" life as well as possible.

That's just obvious. Plenty of highly successful people have overcome what we all too readily categorise as special needs.

Of course I acknowledge that there are people with very severe handicaps but for people who are borderline (as I assume the OP's daughter is if she is in mainstream school) those children are not being helped longer term by being feather bedded.

Of course it's upsetting as a parent to see your child suffer but the point of these forums is to bring some objectivity and longer term thinking!

Does she take a smartphone to school? That's the biggest reason kids at our school are late between classes. If she's overwhelmed and going on her phone to zone out, it isn't actually helping, but it's understandable she thinks it will. You are the adult and can correct that, help her make better choices.

Phone addiction and ADHD look very similar, they also combine in a really bad way. If she is taking a smart phone to school, that is the first thing you can change. If you aren't willing to do so then it's a bit much expecting the school to jump through your hoops.

You are completely clueless.

The lack of support on this thread is a bit depressing.

The OPs daughter is struggling with sensory overload in busy corridors between lessons, - not 'CBA' or 'needs to organise herself' as some PP have suggested. She can't cope. And it's the schools job to help her cope.

They have a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments to help her cope. They don't need a formal diagnosis for this, they should go by symptoms. Leaving class a couple of minutes early or use of headphones are minor reasonable adjustments that could help and they're refusing.

OP I'd use chat gpt to help you draft a letter to press the point that it's their legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments, suggest what you think might help again and ask what they are willing to do if that doesn't work.

I'd also look at changing schools.

Lastly look up 'right to choose' diagnosis pathway- you can use third party providers much much shorter waiting times

OP isn 't asking that her child "be allowed to wander in whenever they please". She is asking for her to be asked to leave a minute early so she can make transitions when corridors are quieter. That's a perfectly reasonable adjustment, and it would be in the world of work. Or they could arrange for someone to walk with her to help her.

Preventing a child from accessing education by reason of their disability really is discrimination of the worst sort.

Op you just came on this thread expecting people to agree with you that the school is appalling, you can’t do anything about it, woe is me, poor dd.

You need to do something constructive and stop moaning.

I doubt you’ve “tried everything “ as you claim.

Have you tried removing her phone completely?

Have you tried getting her involved in structured hobbies?Army cadets is enormously popular with ND kids and they respond brilliantly to the “baby steps” of learning drilling routine and discipline.

Have you ensured she spends lots and lots of time outside the home in low-stakes environments practising being in places that go from noisy to quiet to noisy? Or stay permanently

Adolescence is a tough time for ND kids and your job as parent is not to go “oh there, there poor baby.” Sometimes you have to actually DO something different and see if you can make an improvement. Otherwise how are you preparing her for adult life? You’re not parenting her properly.

Just a thought op.

How is your DD doing academically?

Because I'd be concerned that:

• she is going outside etc because she doesn't want to go to the lesson because it's hard
• the consequence of being removed from the lesson if late will never work if so, because in fact its getting her out of a lesson she doesn't want to be in.

I would go in to school and focus not on her ND traits or asking for adjustments, but on how she is doing academically, and the impact of missing lessons on that. Wholeheartedly agree with them that a consequence is needed for lateness and work with them to agree one that does not impact learning. You may find that a different consequence has a better impact.

Not had time to read all of this but you may find Not Fine in School helpful (they are fab), great FB page, Also, do you have a local Sendias/Sendiass? They are good to talk to and can come to school meetings with you. Agree re needs led (poor school practice) and SEND code of practice. Good luck op.