School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

It sounds like it would be worth your while applying for an EHC needs assessment. The criteria for that are simply that your child may have SEN, and may need support through an EHCP. For the second half of that, you basically need to show that she may need support over and above what is normally available via normal mainstream resources. Given that the current school is apparently unable to support your child, it looks like you could satisfy that one.

If they agree to assess, try to persuade them to get an occupational therapy report from someone trained in sensory integration, as it sounds very much as if your daughter's issues are caused by sensory issues, i.e. difficulty coping with noise and crowds. Even if it does not lead to an EHCP it will be very helpful to have an expert assessment of what is going on.

These kind of comments are just so insensitive and ridiculous. Would you say that to a friend who confided the OP to you? Would that be your first comment IRL? The internet really does bring out dickhead behaviours.

I would put excellent money on this school being an academy. Profit first. Kids last.

Have you tried removing her phone completely?

What is that going to achieve? The issue is coping with noise and crowds, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the phone.

I am very sorry that your husband has struggled but there really is no way of knowing if he would have struggled less or more if his parents had made more accommodations for him. It seems equally possible to me, with ADHD myself°°, that he could have ended up with life on benefits.

If PIP payments continue to be as generous as they are at present, added to UC, then it looks very much to me as if we are creating a generation of mildly° affected SEN children who will live life on benefits instead of being taught that if you want to support yourself as an independent adult you need to work out how to get to places on time.

°I am not talking about those children who are incapable of this learning.

°°which has caused me in the last week to buy a 4ft 6 mattress for a 4ft bed, to order 2 robot hoovers that won't do the job and can't be returned, and to discover that I had completely lost track of thousands of pounds in a forgotten bank account. It's pretty relentless but I've never been late for a meeting in my life. I'm always early, it's the only way I can be sure to be there on time. I don't say this to obtain sympathy but to explain that I am not talking from a position of no knowledge of the difficulties.

Of course she shouldn't be, but the point is she is doing it because she gets utterly overwhelmed. The likelihood is that, like many neurodiverse people, she has very sensitive hearing so that everything sounds extremely loud to her, and the crowds in the corridors won't help. Think about it for a moment - suppose you're somewhere where there is constant loud noise that is actually painful, and people pushing and shoving around you: would you be desperate just to get away from it?

OP has suggested some perfectly sensible work-arounds, but the school won't accommodate any of them. It is breaking the law, which is hardly a good example to any of its pupils.

Chronic lateness and disorganisation is perfectly normal for those of us with ADHD but the reasonable accommodations we can expect is not simply being absolved of the responsibility and allowed to be late and disorganised. What we need, what your daughter needs, is support and structure to learn how to function as is needed.

5 minutes is a reasonable leeway and the punishment would rarely get triggered under most reasonable circumstances if she is doing her best. She needs to work out what the triggers are that cause her lateness of more than 5 minutes and take steps to avoid them.

Typical example - the lesson after break is chemistry, for which she needs to fetch her lab coat from her locker. She spends all of break chatting with her friends until the bell goes, at which point she starts going towards the chemistry lab, then remembers she needs the thing from her locker and goes to fetch it, can't find it immediately and spends a few minutes searching, finally finds it and is late. So instead she needs to get into the habit of getting ready for the lesson after break at the start of break time (and make sure she has what she needs for the lesson after that if there isn't another break in between) and only relaxes to chat with friends once that is done. ADHD people cannot simply rely on their brains to remember important things - if it is important it needs to be on a bullet list or visual cue card with reliable habits built up by always doing things the same way. If the school won't help then you need to work with her for 20 minutes before school each day for a month (after which less time is needed as the timetable is fixed and she'll know the drill) to plan and write down what she needs to remember before each lesson. Use a map of the school to identify critical points where the next lesson is a trek accross the length of the school that might take longer to travel than the time allowed and work out how to plan for it.

I’m in Ireland and the system is different, my children have adhd as so I.

Time blindness is a thing but you can work on practical solutions to help her.

Paed Occupational Therapist used to dealing with kids with adhd etc could be really helpful and look at things like where is her timetable, is it easy to access. Can she use colour coded folders to put all her stuff together by subject. Is she late due to taking down homework on the board at the end and needing longer to write it down (poorer working memory means she can remember shorter sections so needs to look more. It this is the issue could she take a photo of the homework or teacher send it on. Does she wear a watch to keep on top of time. OT’s can request accommodations and might be quicker

It would be unlawful to refuse support until diagnosis. The equality act is quite clear a diagnosis isn't necessary. Tell them they make adjustments or you'll consider a disability discrimination claim (but only if you'll actually carry through). In the meantime apply for an EHC needs assessment on the basis it's the only way she will get the support she needs. The LA will tell you she doesn't need one as the school can make adjustments....but if the school still refuse to do so push on and appeal the refusal to assess.

This is crux of your problem. My son's high school have a support policy for ALL pupils regardless of formal diagnosis or not. Their take on it is - formal diagnosis can take years (currently a 4-5 year waiting list for autism screening in this area) so children should not be put at a disadvantage while waiting. In addition, for various reasons not all families will pursue a forma diagnosis.

ALL children should be given support when required. I'd be looking to move schools.

The reason I chose my son's school is due to it's ethos - I also attended there. They are hot on pupil welfare and deal amazingly with bullying, pupils requiring support etc.

The reason latecomers are punished by missing the lesson is so they stop disturbing the other 25+ kids (some of whom will also have additional needs) who did manage to make it on time and ready to learn. It’s less of a punishment for the child who is late and more a solution to ensure the vast majority can learn. OP is naturally focussed on her own DD but the school has to think about all the other kids as well.

If you want more formal advice try Ipsea, sossen, Coram child law advice and/or the equality and human rights commission. All will give you free advice on this situation.

Ok. So I’m ADHD but wasn’t diagnosed until almost 40. It was misdiagnosed as anxiety since I was a child. I spent all of that time masking hard! A big part of that was strategies to make sure I got through the days unscathed! I did well at school and have a professional career now but I do think it was hard work with poor executive function and it led to crippling anxiety and burn out.

A diagnosis isn’t a magic cure. Neither is medication. I’d work with her to focus on what’s actually going wrong and strategies for this. I used to mirror other people to mask - can she not follow class mates to the next lesson, over plan etc. I would, and still do, feel such anxiety about getting things wrong that if anything I’m too early and lose focus on what I’m doing so I’m not late or don’t miss something completely. I know that if I don’t have a number of reminders then I will not turn up to a dentist appointment for example.

I know this isn’t ideal and I don’t know the answers on accommodations etc. But I have always found I’ve just had to find ways of being responsible for things myself. I’ve never had halo. I over plan until I cannot relax - knowing that day to day things won’t happen for me the way they will for others. I feel deep shame about lots of my failings because of ADHD and I do hope it gets better for younger generations but I’m still not sure where in the place where we can hand over these issues to schools and workplaces to solve. I think it will improve her self esteem to have some of her own strategies.

There’s also a lot written on ND. So as a family you could do a deep dive if the school aren’t experts.

We are an AuDHD family and all have different presentations - ironically I have a lifetime history of chronic earliness to offset the fear of lateness and the social awkwardness of arriving after things start. My DS couldn’t care less and wanders in to classes seemingly unhurried [he is masking, but it can tick some staff off if they are unaware of his diagnosis].

So, it isn’t really helpful when people for whom their ADHD/Autism does not impact them like this to be commenting the way some have. The issue is that it impacts your DD in this way and her social anxiety means overwhelm creates a fright/flight response and she possibly hides in the loo or somewhere quiet until the mass lesson change over has receded. Asking for her to leave early is actually a completely reasonable adjustment request - they would allow a physically disabled person to leave early to avoid the rush, so why the material difference in offering this solution for a person with an invisible disability (albeit, yet to be confirmed by diagnosis). Therefore, given they are aware of the fact DD is on the waitlist for formal assessment, I would argue that implementing a punishment for her disability related behaviour rather than offering an adjustment is actually discriminatory and has the potential to be escalated to the Board of Governors or the LEA.

However, in the first instance you could reach out to ipsea.org? They advocate for children and families with SEN - whether it be pushing for ECHPs or reasonable adjustments. I believe they have a helpline and could possibly give initial advice today? I think having the support of someone there - to write to the school and remind them of their legal responsibilities under discrimination law etc may help.

I don't understand your point though? Surely your impressive father's experiences and successes were the result of him developing the necessary resilience to succeed notwithstanding any issues he faced?

Are we not in agreement?!

We get it rammed down our throats 24/7 about attendance yet schools chuck kids in isolation where they miss proper teaching for entire lessons willy nilly all the time. It's so hypocritical it's unreal. How is missing an entire lesson a suitable punishment for anyone?

Aside from which the other 25 kids to consider does not mean it's okay for schools to refuse reasonable adjustments. If they made some, ops dd would be on time and then NO ONE would miss out. How wild!

School is helping prepare kids for the big wide world. Your DD will need to be at work on time.

i think it’s about you supporting DD to be on time rather than blaming the school. From their POV if every kid is late they could just say “well I’m waiting for an ADHD assessment” - they can only really deal with actual diagnoses.

I think the issue I schools take punitive approaches to manage things that just need an alternative approach. My child in primary cannot go to the toilet when he needs to. When I was young it was never an issue, we were trusted to do simple things. I just think schools have gone down the high discipline route and have lost their ability to apply discretion and common sense to a situation. Not really the teacher's fault, needs better leadership really.

I was a SENCO in a large secondary school and leaving lessons a little early to move in a quieter time is a measure I would put in place for a pupil with an ADHD diagnosis if it helped. I would need to see that she had significant ADHD traits though if there was no formal diagnosis and understand what was delaying her getting to the next lesson. It could be a lack of using her timetable to know where to go, problems with knowing the best routes around the school or getting distracted on her way to the next lesson. I might suggest that she went with a friend to make sure she went straight to the next classroom initially. I would give her a map of the school with classrooms clearly marked, maybe the teachers could check with her at the end of the previous lesson that she knows the best route?

Its very difficult to put measures in place without a diagnosis as unfortunately lots of parents self diagnose ADHD or ASD in their children and ask for support measures to be put in place which are not practical for large numbers of pupils.

Does the school have access to an Ed Psych who could do an informal assessment of your daughter’s problems in school? I assume you have asked your daughter exactly what are her problems getting to the next lesson on time ie unpick why she gets over whelmed? Could you go through her timetable each morning to make sure she knows ahead where she needs to go?

If I was late to lesson as a kid, my parents would have told me off. However your DD knows you will make excuses for her, so why would she bother to be on time because mummy will say it’s not her fault.

Years ago I was often late for school. The reason was that I stopped caring about it. It was only when a teacher pointed out an employer would not tolerate it and I would be sacked I realised I needed to change what I was doing. So I did. A reality check can sometimes work.

It's not willy nilly though. It is disruptive and rude to show up late. It is disruptive and rude to persistently ignore rules. It's disruptive and rude to constantly talk over teachers. The kids who actually want to make something of their lives deserve better. Whatever your additional needs are school is a community. If you don't have any interest in supporting it as such then you have no business disrupting the learning and experience of the other children that do.

I agree with you - teachers know who genuinely needs the loo and who is planning to skive / muck around and when I was at school would apply their discretion. However, the problem now is that the parents of the kid who will be going into the loo to cause havoc will come in and complain that their precious little sod is not being allowed to use the loos during lessons when other children are, and that said little sod is being discriminated against. Schools are in an impossible position where essentially the good kids lose out because the badly behaved kids can’t be trusted.

We had issues like this when one of our DC had then undiagnosed neurodiversity.

It helped not having a diagnosis tbh because then we just put in place the kind of strict boundaries that teenagers really do need.

The strategy that worked came from a book called Divas and Doorslammers.

Teens always want money.
I put a £1 coin in a place that DC had to get out of bed to access (in another room). Once DC was out of bed, then everything flowed from there and wasn't late getting to school. It took about 3 weeks to break the habit.