School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

as someone who has severe ADHD, clear consistent boundaries are really helpful. I’m only going to do something if I either really want to do it or I really have to do it.

i think the two issues you have here are her missing out on learning time and the impact of the punishments on her identity.

im guessing the school have a way of making sure the punishment sessions doesn’t mean she loses learning opportunities? I would want to know that. Then you have to find a way to make sure you mitigate any shame or negative self identity when this happens.

finally I’d say support the school with this. It will really help your daughter. It may be a slow imperfect journey, but it will really help your daughter if she can get up lessons on time.

Ask to speak to the SENDCo again then use the school complaints procedure if you're not happy with the outcome. Is there a governor with a focus on SEND?

You posted on AIBU, I’ll reply to any inflammatory or unfair posts I choose to thanks. The fact is boys and girls with SEND are being let down but as regards ND, girls more so. Whatever wait your son had girls will be waiting 5 years longer.

I can assure you 3 years ago I wasn’t angry. I have tried everything in a school that is actually failing my DD.

May I ask why she hasn’t seen a psychiatrist yet? It may be different in the Uk but in Australia you can generally see a private psychiatrist within 4-6 weeks max. Wouldn’t actually finding out what the problem is be a big part of planning a solution?

Have you tried giving her a timer or some kinda fidget, so she can go outside for, say one minute to calm down and avoid the busiest bit of the corridor, then she knows when to get moving she she's not late. Also some strategies for coping in the corridor when it is busy have been put in the thread, so worth going through one or two with her. I'd also say, help her with the organisation and make sure she's got her timetable with classrooms accessible, and a list of what she needs for each lesson, so she can plan around when she's able to, for example, visit her locker to replenish books, and isn't making additional trips that aren't timetabled for.

I'd also say, remove her phone totally for school. As much as you think she's outside for a break and just looses track of time or is taking too long, I'd say it's likely, if she's got a smartphone in school, that she's actually using social media and loosing track of time during these points too, either to distract herself, or just out of boredom, and it's part of what's making her late. Look at other things she could use (Eg wearing a watch, and box breathing for 60 seconds, then getting to class/ slowly breathing and pressing all the buttons on a popit in turn then going), which would be less likely to give a dopamine hit that she'd be getting from tiktok etc, but would calm her down, help her regulate and cope, and will get her to class on time.

If your DD can’t cope in mainstream, maybe she needs to be homeschooled? I don’t think your expectations of the school are reasonable.

You can see private specialists here very quickly, but you also have to pay a big price that many don't have. Think well over £1,000. NHS wait times are really long, and continue to grow. Referral pathways are also incredibly complicated.

I’m in Scotland so probably a bit different but my daughter is 13 with anxiety and (probable) autism. Wheels definitely came off in s1 as is common and we weren’t ready which is common too. Transitioning between classes was really hard - she has a 5 min pass and a break pass and a toilet pass but what she actually started doing was just leaving class slowly. Everyone leaps up when the bell rings but if she just lets them all go, she can get herself to her next class a bit behind the rush. Her school is across 3 buildings and 4 floors so she actually fell down the stairs a few times as one of her major triggers is being late and she’d panic and rush around. Once she slowed down and let the chaos happen ahead of her it has been much better.

There’s no chance your daughter will be assessed before turning 16 and moving over to adult services so if you really need an assessment I’d look for a private option. We are 2.5 years into our wait and to be honest, have found the most success by working on the symptoms regardless of what anyone else might call it. We found some therapy we paid for privately which was super helpful too and focussed our finances on that instead of an assessment - but for our daughter it’s really obvious what the assessment will find so better to focus on how to help her. Very different if you aren’t sure what exactly is going on so maybe better to get some professional support in place.

This is the problem with modern schooling though isn't it? They provide a thousand times more support than they ever did in previous generations. They pander to kids and everything has to be an adjustment rather than an expectation. This thread is perfect proof of that. School tries to set a perfectly reasonable boundary and parents of perfectly capable children kick off claiming that their children 'aren't getting support'. This leads to children getting very mixed messages about what exactly is expected of them which (as you've articulated) makes it even harder for them to toe the line especially if they're ND (the irony!). They grow up miserable and anxious and entitled with no sense of self-responsibility or responsibility towards society. It's an uncomfortable truth but we need to seriously start looking at why we've never had so much support and money put into helping people but we've never had so many children and young people who are so fundamentally entitled, antisocial and unable to cope with the very basic stressors of life

Email the Senco and the headteacher and the governor responsible for SEND (details should be on their website) if she's on the right to choose then they should as a minimum be putting an IEP in place. There's adjustments they can make to minimise the effects, from small things like leaving slightly earlier, to making sure she has a 'buddy' during movement times, to the higher level of pastoral staff walking between lessons with a group. The code of practice is clear that you don't need the diagnosis to activate adjustments, you're not doing armchair diagnosis, she's on the pathway and they are obliged to act accordingly

Does she have a friendship group that can help her?

You need to focus on coping strategies. It’s very disruptive when children arrive late to class. The reality is that life won’t wait for her - trains, planes, appointments, friends. She needs to find what works for her to make her able to be on time. It’s not easy but she needs to find a way.

You say you've tried everything but everything you've mentioned here is trying to get the school to make amends not helping your daughter to overcome her issues.

What does she do that makes her late? Hide somewhere? Get lost in corridors? It's not hard to break it down 30 seconds by 30 seconds and there are many things she can do in that time.

You need to change your approach to the school. If you’re going in with a combative “you’re failing her” attitude you will get nowhere. SEN resources in schools are stretched to breaking point. Teachers are stretched to breaking point. Schools are tired of parents demanding allowances and privileges and 1-1 support for kids who aren’t diagnosed, like it’s all their fault the parents have only just decided to seek help and now want every adjustment done asap.

I say this as a SEN parent and partner of a teacher. Your anger is misplaced. Talk to your DD about what might help her move between lessons without getting stressed - headphones with music, fidget spinner, early leave pass, designated buddy support etc - then present as solutions. If support is still lacking, ask for a meeting with SEN and head of year. Be persistent but tolerant.

In 3 years you could have saved enough to see a Dr… just saying.

And it is not bloody fair to the other 30 children in the class who are having their education interrupted every time your daughter is late is it? Same as leaving the classroom early.
You need to help her understand and put practises in place so she learns to manage her time.
In less than 4 years she will be in the adult world where employers expect ( and rightly so) employee's to turn up on time and co-workers expect the same if your daughter is having to relive them.

@VividDenimTiger

I’m in Ireland so it’s different here but…I paid for a private appt. with a paediatric neurologist for DS when he was 14. Essentially, he was diagnosed with Autism and severe Dyspraxia.

My GP had referred him through the public health system (NHS equivalent) but I was concerned that he needed school support NOW as the school wouldn’t do anything without a referral and he’d already been waiting since primary school due to delays caused by Covid. He was academically very able but had various autistic traits similar to your daughter and was struggling with the noise and busyness of school and being hassled by the other kids.

It cost me €700 and was money well spent!

He saw the neurologist 3 times and we (parents, DS and school) also completed thorough questionnaires and subsequently the neurologist wrote a detailed report for school stating what adjustments needed to be made.

Once you have written recommendations from a medical expert, the school would be taking a risk ignoring them as a court would always support a medical expert over a school administrator, and schools are aware of this.

The Learning Support worker at DS’s school and his Head of Year were brilliant to be fair, once they’d received the report. In addition to exam support, he was also allowed to ditch PE (due to the severe dyspraxia affecting his balance and co-ordination) and spend those sessions in the learning support room completing homework.

He was able to take his Junior Cert exams (approx GCSE equiv) in a small exam room using a laptop and did very well.

Ignore the shitty comments from the clueless posters. Good luck!

But that’s life right? It’s hard and it’s harder for people with ADHD but being on time is just necessary. If you start work at 9am and don’t get there til 910 it’s going to cause a problem with your employer too. If the bus comes at 830am and you get to the bus stop at 835am - it’s gone.

where I am, the NHS waiting list for a child to see someone for such things is seven YEARS. I went private.

Unfortunately long waits for diagnosis are all too common in the U.K.

I have a child who’s been on the neurodiversity assessment pathway for a similar length of time to OP’s DD.

I went to a parent / carer event a while back, and they had someone from the local NHS neurodiversity assessment team giving a presentation. She told us that the current waiting time for NHS assessments is around 4 years.
Part of the problem is a national shortage of practitioners able to do the assessments, which also affects waiting times for other routes. And the other problem with going private is that often the NHS will refuse to prescribe any ADHD meds without an NHS diagnosis.

The lengthy waits for assessments is one of the reasons that schools are supposed to provide support based on need, rather than waiting until a child has a formal diagnosis.

Yes public lists are the same here but you’d just go private it’s your child’s health not a kitchen aid. This is hugely impactful for her education and future prospects.

Are you working with her on ways to manage the feeling of overwhelm rather than simply avoiding it?

Its going to stand her in better stead for the rest of her life if you help her to build a range of strategies that help, eg can she pop ear plugs in before leaving the classroom to lessen the din, can she use breathing exercises as she walks to keep herself calm, can she ask a friend to stick with her and help her keep going and get to class?

Even if she left 1 minute early she'd still find as she got to her destination classroom things would be in full swing as that classroom would be emptying and moving out - its not the solution you think it is, if it was that simple school would be ok with it. And leaving 4-5 minutes early from every lesson represents a LOT of lost learning time and is really disruptive to the rest of the class - and their learning needs matter, too.

In life, she is going to face consequences for constant lateness. Lots of employers won't tolerate it, she'll miss trains and flights, she alienate friends, miss medical appointments and parents evening appointments.

Its obviously something she finds really hard. But that doesn't mean she should be allowed a pass on it. It's a bit like maths. Its really hard for some people, but its important that you have those skills for adulthood.

Can you give her more tools to manage? Watches that buzz, calendar reminders on phone, a pomodoro timer to help her see how long the 5 mins is to get from lesson to lesson?