To wonder why so many male migrants have committed sexual assaults:even if they are evil people, wouldn't staying in the UK be an incentive to abide by the law?

[Jane379]

I KNOW that plenty of the men who come are not evil and don't want to commit sexual assault. But clearly a number who have come are, and there's strong evidence that male migrants are disproportionately lileky to do so.

This almost surely at least partly caused by misogynistic culture in various areas meaning back home they perceived uncovered women as permissible to assault. But surely they know it's different here? That they will likely be caught? They are at least more likely to be punished here for assault.

Or are they convinced our police system will let them off?

Or they're not aware our norms are different?

Or just don't care about the consequences?

I wonder also if criminals are in a sense selected for since they may have little to tie them to their home countries, or even be escaping punishment there.

They think its a big joke. Its just a pass time to them, something to do when bored.

"jack rolling" they call it (gang rape). I saw a documentary and young men were smirking on camera about the various girls in their hs class whom they had gang raped.

They were teasing each other about committing rape and blushing, the way kids might tease someone about a crush or first kiss.

This from 2005:

A STRING of rapes in Northampton may mark the arrival in Britain of a notorious South African violent crime known as jack rolling.
Police have warned women not to go out alone at night after five attacks in nine days by a gang who cruise the town centre in two cars.
Jack rolling became notorious in South Africa during the 1990s, when gangs of youths in cars blocked off streets and raped every woman caught in their net.

‘Jack rolling’ link to rape gang

I looked into this.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/4249798.stm

This was the preparator

Children do not need to be taught that raping a girl against her will is wrong.

Why can’t we copy text from MN any more? I can’t access your bbc link.

@MandingoAteMyBaby Are you aware that very different groups of people can express the same view and have very different reasons and motivations for that view? For example feminists support single sex spaces for feminist reasons, seeing these as protecting women and girls most basic human rights to dignity, privacy and safety. People like Matt Walsh agree with single sex spaces but ridicule the idea of people making a feminist case for this, which they wholly reject. It’s therefore absurd to say Matt Walsh, a vociferous anti-feminist, is ‘one of feminists own’.

Are you one of those people who thinks of you agree with someone on one thing, you are therefore ‘one of their tribe’. That agreeing on one thing means you have ‘aligned’ yourself with that person?

Are you one of those people who think if you disagree with someone on one thing you have to disagree with them on everything?

Because these are not mature or intelligent ways of thinking. They are ways of thinking designed to cause division and conflict, they are designed to create simplistic black and white ways of seeing the world that end intelligence and reflection and create a deeply tribalistic view of the world. It’s a thought-terminating way of viewing the world.

This may have once been true but I think now that boys are accessing pornography, much of which is about violence and domination of women, I think boys probably do need to be taught this. They have learnt this is normal sex and the porn has programmed them to be aroused by it.

A read an article about boys getting erections when their girlfriends cry ( because they watch so much porn of women crying as they are sexually assaulted) I posted this in a group and several of the young women said they had experienced this. If you are aroused rather than saddened by a girl or woman crying that’s a barrier to rape gone and an incentive created. I had a friend in her 50s. As a young teen several of her male friends started to assault her. She cried and they apologized and stopped. Her reaction brought them to their senses. I doubt that would happen now if the boys watched online porn.

You’ve misunderstood my point.

I didn’t say these men were feminists, nor that sharing one view makes people part of the same ideological tribe.

I pointed out that 44 of the 107 people arrested had previous domestic violence offences. When people claim to be rioting to “protect women and girls”, that fact is relevant to assessing the credibility of that claim.

People can support the same position for different reasons. They can also use a cause as a pretext while behaving in ways that contradict it. My post was about the latter, not the former.

I already knew some of the stats of protesters. I also go on counter protests where it becomes very obvious who some of these people are - I’ve been called ‘slag’ many times - some guy hoped our ‘kids get raped’, mostly they just hope that we do tbf!! The protestors do use personal insults more than my side to get a rise and cause strife, but these comments, to my mind, just show exactly who they are. I’ve also seen aggression of course, and no respect for any wives they’ve brought along to admire them.

When they show me who they are I believe them - and all I think when they say they’re ’protecting women and children’ is that they want to save the rape and abuse for themselves!

I see a lot of liking for Reform ‘knowing what a woman is’ - I could agree in one literal sense - but what they also think a woman is, ie/ kitchen and sex fodder incapable of having choices over their own body, denied equality - then no, I could never align with that.

@BashthatTerriesorange- whilst I understand you can agree with one policy, then not the rest, and agree the same - in this case maintaining women’s spaces is not a good policy considering the dreadful other parts of policy around women.

My god that’s dreadful/ I’m too old to experience this I think - but I have kids, grandkids.

In my view it’s men as a whole need education- or maybe porn needs less access. In my day it was those mags! Not saying they were great - in fact I had a very bad experience due to a guy believing those stories - but at least there wasn’t more way out stuff to contend with too.

I don’t mean all men of course, though occasionally I wonder! And I don’t mean everything non vanilla is dreadful - but the toxic masculinity sites, and the quite wild porn depiction of women really does need addressing.

You said this, ‘For some reason these “save are women” people look away when it’s one of their own’

You posted this on a long running thread where people are discussing whether or not migrants from some countries commit more sexual assaults than British people, and some are expressing concern they are, and that the safety of women and girls is being put aside to avoid accusations of racism, and other are saying, or intimidating, it’s racist to raise these concerns and all men are the same.

Can you see that popping that comment into a thread will be understood as an attack on the people on this thread expressing concern about women and girls? You are speaking not in a vacuum but in the context of an ongoing conversation?

I think what you are now claiming is that you are only talking about that subset of the 107 men. I am still not clear why you thought this was an interesting or relevant point. I don’t think the moral coherence of violent, rioting men is really the point. It’s certainly a huge tangent away from the substance of the thread. And again, the only reason I can see for making this bizarre insertion is to taint by association anyone raising concern about ‘women and girls’.

Yes, violent rioting men tend to be a bit dodgy and motivated by enjoying a bit of a rammy. I don’t think this is news to anyone.

@Jane379 I haven't read the whole thread, but there's this. Certain countries eg Pakistan, have the death penalty for rape. So if someone from a country with the death penalty for rape, commits rape and is found guilty, they then cannot be deported back there.
It basically incentives rape as a way not to be deported.

It absolutely does make a difference.
They are coming from countries where women have zero rights, are seen as second class citizens and are property of men, and where rape and sexual violence is endemic.
They need to be not here. We do not owe them anything.

The problem is men line ignores a lot of the issues.

Plus knowing young men are more likely to commit violent or sexual offences why on earth would you design a system that did just that.

Women should absolutely say no, design a system for us.

More to @MandingoAteMyBaby

If we import too many of these men, women will lose their rights. We will have politicians and political parties openly calling for abolishing the vote for women and women's freedoms.

We could go the way of Afghanistan or Iran quite easily. Anyone who thinks that's not true is not paying attention.

In Afghanistan mumsnet would be illegal.

’ - I could agree in one literal sense - but what they also think a woman is, ie/ kitchen and sex fodder incapable of having choices over their own body, denied equality - then no, I could never align with that.

• I dislike Reform but this seems a bit exaggerated. A lot of women are prominent in Reform : Laila Mohammed, Linden Kemkaran, Sarah Pochin, as well as ex Tories like Braverman, Dorries etc

Oh no, that's another point. In that case it's not so much that rape (or at least some rape) isn't punished then, the problem is different.

They follow a religion invented by a man who was a paedophile, a rapist, a slave owner and a mass murderer, which portrays both non-adherents and women as being inferior. They think God will reward them with sex for committing atrocities.

• while I think Muhammad was a decidedly unpleasant character (!), I don't agree with the implication that Muslim nations are therefore default dangerous. The problems in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc et. are much more to do with tribal honour and ethnic nationalism, like pashtunwali as I said to pp. If you look at Chinese Hui Muslims, or Muslims in other parts of Asia there's generally a lot more moderation due to cultural emphasis on harmony. Bosnian Muslims don't tend to behave like this, Soviet secularisation for one was a huge influence there. Moreover, Christian Arabs in various countries (Lebanon, Palestine & others) are often just as likely to be ethnically jingoistic and often anti Semitic, due to Arab nationalism.

Moreover,,as I said to pp, the Old Testament allows slavery, rape of captives among other things. The difference is that clearly Christianity and Judaism modernised whereas Islam became more fundamentalist rather than less due to movements like 18th century Wahhabism..

Or South Africa. A country where 25 - 40% of men will openly admit to rape in surveys. When you consider the "shy rapists", it will likely be big majority of them who are rapists. A country where superstitions abound, such as raping a virgin can cure of of HIV.

• thank you, this is terrifying information bit we need to know. How did attitudes get so bad?

This survey was in 2009, 17 years ago. Has the situation since got better or worse?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/17/south-africa-rape-survey

Low IQ predominates in both places. In SA its 77. Afghanistan its 88. Below 70 was traditionally considered the threshold for mental retardation. By way of comparison, a dolphin is estimated to have an IQ of between 70 - 100. Bottlenose dolphins have a typical IQ of 126

• re these points. I think scientists who've studied this say that below 70 IQ means mental retardation if combined with other factors, but not on its own. I think some have also argued that IQ is maybe a flawed tool for measuring developing countries as several countries have come out with results that would mean most of the population was mentally retarded, which wouldn't seem accurate.

Re bottlenose dolphins, are you sure that's true? That would mean they have a better average IQ than human beings.

Can you give me a source for that claim about dolphins? They would not be able to do a human style IQ test so how was this 'IQ' measured?

Dolphins have an IQ of 126. Wow. Why don't we train them up to be computer engineers and doctors?

Most women's first sexual encounter is as a child.

I've certainly never heard this before.
Sounds quite inflammatory.
Where did you hear this?

I just asked AI and it gave me the following link, stating that Reuters found it was 12 percent: https://www.reuters.com/world/one-eight-girls-women-raped-or-sexually-assaulted-before-age-18-unicef-says-2024-10-10/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

What is your motive in posting such an extreme and clearly untrue statement? I'm a woman in my 60s. If it was true, I would have heard something about it somewhere.

What's up DOC? Squeak. Oh no I have got Squeak.

That poster was being misleading. Their IQ can be estimated but dolphins' brains are fundamentally different. They are very smart at what they evolved to do, but they don't have complex language etc and haven't evolved to the extent we have. It's misleading to imply they have a human style IQ of 126.

I also find pp's implication a bit unsavoury if they're trying to imply that most people in SA & Afghanistan are less intelligent than smart animals.

Certainly going back a couple of 100 years with those IQ views - very, very distasteful, as well as just wrong.

Maybe it would be better if dolphins did rule the world - some people seem to have some odd and repulsive ideas on how it should look.