to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

As DM is a semi recluse, there’s a mental health issue here isn’t there? She’s not behaving like a standard adult grandparent. She cuts herself off deliberately and is clearly not coping with life outside her narrow vision.

It’s all very well having a go at her, but there’s much more going on here than her family is recognising and they aren’t being very helpful. Why not visit at a weekend when DH isn’t working? His dm doesn’t need him 7 days a week. Plus the op might be around. Many 2 year olds are not that noisy but I can see why the grandma has an issue, considering she’s got problems of her own and is probably a compulsive cleaner too and tidy upper. Her needs are clearly not being considered and she’s got problems that are not addressed. Her issues have led to this. She’s closing down even more.

Why does your sister still want to visit? Why do you?

Something touched a nerve then…

The hyperbole in your post is unnecessary. Saying the poster ‘hates kids’ and using a phrase like ‘childless old buddy’? The ageist and misogynistic phrases you have used throughout your post are really unnecessary.

You aren’t there so I’m not sure why you are so angry about strangers on the internet.

Sorry so this sentence was not implying that she could leave the older two and stay with the twins? Sorry if I misunderstood.. "So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children."

People think their kids do not create havoc or have normal behaviour - but her mother was clearly OK with the older two when they were younger its just the 2year old twins she has pushed back on. All parents have a different definition of what is 'normal' behaviour' for toddlers.

Nobody is having a go at DM.

DSis does sometimes visit on a weekend with her DH but the twins still do not sit quietly and make no noise.

DM's needs are being considered. DSis will not take the twins over any more.

To those who keep saying why do you keep visiting:

There's quite a lot of middle ground between thinking DM is being unfair and cutting her off completely.

I can be upset and disappointed about DM behaviour without wanting to end the relationship.

@timetoban I didn’t use the words “having a go”! I think DM has other issues going on that aren’t being fully recognised. I stand by that. Why doesn’t she go out? Why is she ultra house proud? Does she compulsively clean and tidy up? Does anything out of place disturb her? I think you need to look into this. I think posters have given your DM a good kicking! However I’d look at why she’s unhappy about 2 two year olds because it’s much deeper than posters think. My dm had undiagnosed high blood pressure and she was intolerant of young dc too. Have you spoken to DM about her feelings?

Hopefully, the twins won't want to visit their grandmother at that point, as they wouldn't have built up any sort of relationship with her.

She sounds very Victorian with her 'children should be seen but not heard' philosophy. If she complains that she doesn't see the twins once they are older and more acceptable to her, I hope that someone will explain that she has brought this on herself.

You said It’s all very well having a go at her,

I have spoken to DM. She says she does not like the noise and the mess of the twins.

She likes everything very clean and tidy. This was her focus when me and my sister were children too. She kept everything clean and we would be constantly told off if we made a mess. We were not allowed to paint or do crafts etc.

Her blood pressure is fine.

She has said we never had tantrums and were always well behaved as children. From what I recall, we were not always well behaved and when we were, it was because of fear.

You are right Op. My mum also can’t handle much noise anymore now she’s older, after being a patient person for decades.

I wouldn’t cut off my mum for this. She does need to understand that this changes the frequency of visits until the kids are older.

This all matters. Your mother went about it the wrong way, but it sounds exhausting to me with all those kids in the house, and I'm not elderly.

How much good behaviour are people expecting of 2 year old twins? Realistically, 2 year olds do not sit quietly and play without making a mess for hours.

But then don’t take them for hours. Take them for a time they can manage.

When your sis’s DH is about can’t he look after the kids so your sis can go and see your mum by herself?

Your mum cannot cope with the noise of four small children - don’t vilify her work with her to see what’s possible.

She will have to accept she sees them less / for less time but overall everyone might be happier.

She takes them for 2 hours.

Her DH does look after the kids so she can go by herself but he works long hours so it is rare.

DM is not being vilified. I think it is unfair but she is not being treated badly as a result of her choice.

Which is why your sister needs to be ‘on it’ with them - you say she does her best as she has four children, but they shouldn’t be able to make a mess in the house.

She is on it. But how do you expect 2 year old twins to play without ever making a mess?

Wow I could never see my mum doing this our twins 2 and single 3 then olders are always welcome for the day and sleepovers

It’s clear your mum doesn’t like children if the only way she can tolerate the older two is if they essentially behave as adults or are pacified with screens. I would compromise with a monthly or every two months visit without kids if you can manage that (but I wouldn’t also be killing myself to do it). She doesn’t have to be dropped completely but how your lives are right now means you can’t see her often if she can’t compromise her needs a bit. It’s not
your fault.

2 hours is too long. 45 mins to an hour then say this has been lovely and go.

She goes weekly - there’s no need to stay for 2 hours. Any child is going to get bored.

Oh dear, looks like she won’t be seeing any of her grandchildren then.

What’s the point in spending your life raising a child, only to reject them and push them away like this later in life. Your sister must be really hurt by this.

DM will not like the mess or noise for 45 mins either.

Then take them for however long it is that they can behave. It’s not impossible for 2 year olds to sit relatively quietly for a short period of time. The older two definitely can sit quietly for a period of time.

Otherwise give up and she doesn’t see them at all. However I would still make the effort to see her without them despite all the hyperbole on this thread

Is it possible your mum has undiagnosed Autism and OCD? She sounds exactly like my mum. We have a troubled relationship as she is the same with my children. I also have OCD and undiagnosed Autism, my brother at 50 has just been given his diagnosis.

Your mother doesn't like small children. She didn't even like her own very much, from your comments. She values order and quiet.

The result of that is that she just won't often get to see her daughter. Maybe a monthly visit for an hour or so, but nothing more because your sister is busy with her four young children.

Choices have consequences. Either she puts up with noise and chaos because her daughter is worth it, or she rarely sees her daughter until the children are school aged.

Even then, four children in a house is going to be pretty chaotic.

She will die a lonely woman if she keeps this up. Totally unreasonable and disrespectful. I'd be telling her where to go