to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

I find the idea of 2 kids sat on screens visiting gran quite sad. 2 kids running around, playing and having fun visiting grandparents is much more normal.

Your DM is batshit, quite an awful mother. She should very supporting your DSIS, sounds like she's got a full on time of it at the moment. If i were her I'd give up on your DM for the time being.

As if the few hours a week Dsis and her husband are both available should be used visiting her!

I do have some sympathy for the OP's DM as I am 60 and sometimes find my 3dgc (soon to be 4) a bit full on, I can't imagine what it'd be like if I was 11 or 12 years older! Of course I'd never ban them and enjoy interacting with them but if you're used to a quiet life it can be a lot. I would suggest meeting at a neutral spot or when all the dc are at school and nursery. Keep the bond going through WhatsApp or Facetiming until they get a little older.

As many have said...maybe not as bluntly. DM is an absolute dick.

are u the sister?

How old is your Mum?
I've worked with the elderly for decades and honestly some people can become quite intolerant and quite fixed in their thinking.
Dismissing an otherwise lovely mother as a "bit of a dick" is very unfair if she genuinely feels she can't cope.
I'd try to explain that it isn't appropriate to leave the twins out but I'd also try really hard to maintain a relationship with my mum too.

That's madness!

My mam is very houseproud but has no problem letting her grandkids tear through the place, food mess, toys and fingerprints everywhere! She just turns a blind eye and cleans up when they're gone.

My dad is also a total recluse and again doesn't mind grandkids coming in and causing chaos even though he's used to the quiet life and his partner is nearly 80 and doesn't mind either.

I feel like it's reasonable for her to say she can't handle the visits at her house without singling out the twins but she should just visit at your sisters house instead. How is she even meant to have a relationship with the twins if she wont see them at either house?

Quite a bit of support for my DM here from people who are older which is interesting as it gives a bit of an idea of the other side.

The ban didn't come out of nowhere - DM was expressing it doesn't work for her and it sounds that nothing changed. Dsis comes when she has solo care of all four and she doesn't manage it well enough at this moment. The ban sounds as a desperate measure after she wasn't heard.

Those 4 children clearly need 2 adults to be occupied and "behave" as a result. DM can't act as the second adult, so the visits need to change - both parents present, actively managing the children, even if it means shorter and less often.
Cutting DM off just because she can't provide essentially a respite day for DSis seems transactional.

You have to be OP’s mother!!! So a home is more important than 2 little grandchildren grandkids?? Are you serious? You definitely hate kids because your take is extremely weird. You’re saying sis can’t handle her kids, why should two year olds be expected to sit still and be quiet for maybe 1-2 hours visit? The mother is an utter battleaxe wench. I’d be telling her good luck, enjoy your poxy pristine home, hope it’s there for you to hold your hand on your death bed because none of us were good enough for you to be around when you were alive so we won’t be there when you’re dying either!! Sounds like she has zero engagement with the 5 & 6 year olds too as they sit and stay quiet using their tablets or watching tv or whatever. Doesn’t sound like a granny at all, more like a childless old biddy who cares about nobody and nothing but her house 😏

But OP said in her first post that that doesn't work for them as a family. So in reality what's going to happen is that her DM isn't going to see her daughter or grandchildren. If she's OK with that, then I guess she can crack on with her rules but it seems a rather sad way to live, putting the state of her house before her grandchildren.

And I don't think it sounds much like respite for OP's sister as their mother clearly has no interest in interacting with her grandchildren. It actually sounds stressful and unpleasant.

how is it a respite day? 2 kids on screens and the Dsis running around after the 2 little ones, parenting them, trying to to upset her mum and cleaning after them.

Or do you not understand what respite means?

Your mum should think very carefully. This will have consequences

a mum of singleton and twins here. Twins do tend to bounce of each other more than any of my singletons together did. My first thought was A ban seems extreme especially banning some not all with no compromise. But then given the stage in your mums life and that I work with older people, I also kinda get it.

Ive found older people get they don’t cope as well with noise, movements of others in the house especially children leaping (I look at my 2 and 3 year old as I type) they don’t jump around but they don’t just walk from a-b like normal human beings there’s a little skip a jump, dive 🙈😂 so kinda get that she just can’t cope with the dynamics of toddler stage let alone two toddlers. Think she maybe hasn’t explained herself as well as she could. My nana loves all my children, I’ve a big age gap between my older ones and my youngest two, when she was a bit younger she coped with my kids much better, we would stay most of the day, with my youngest two now who are toddlers and now she’s older, she just can’t cope we still visit but we literally only stay for about 20-40 mins and you can see her looking wary due to the energy toddlers give off and that exhausts her alone.

We have twins so aware they can be hard, but I suspect with 4 kids under the age of 6 including 2 toddlers your sister might be letting her 2 toddlers create more havoc than other toddlers because its too tricky for an exhausted mum to manage the behaviours of all four kids. 2 year olds go successfully into nursery settings - if the twins are running around all the time that would make life tricky. But I used to see it all the time in the park - twin toddlers going in two directions in parks so exhausted twin mums eventually giving up and giving them more freedom than what other parents where giving to their singleton toddlers. I saw it mostly if the twins were both boys too.
Your sister likely needs more support - to be honest I think she should negotiate dropping the older two off with her mum more regularly and just having the twins.

But has she ever told you to only come to her house without the little ones?

DSis wasn't going for respite. DM does not help with the DC.

DSis is managing the best she can but she can't make two year old twins sit nicely and not make a sound. Even when the DH is there, the two year olds do not sit quietly for the whole of the visit.

She doesn't let the twins run around all the time and they do not cause havoc al the time. They are normal 2 year olds.

DM doesn't want to help with the DC so she can't drop off the older two.

Your mums issue isn’t with not wanting the kids in her house. If it was, she could say she’d visit you both in your own homes. She just has no tolerance or interest in her grandchildren unless they’re sat silently. She obviously has the old fashioned view of children should be seen and not heard.

If I were you and your sister I’d say we are happy not to visit you in your home however you know where we live so get in touch when you want to visit.

It sounds like you both tip toe around her and pander to her a lot.

Well, obviously your DM has the right to prioritise order in her home if that is important to her and goodness knows 2 yo twins are going to be a handful. The reality is though DS is their FT carer and she can’t just leave them. I think it is unreasonable to expect DS to use significant portions of her precious child free (or child reduced) time visiting her mum though. The obvious solution is DM goes to DS house.
If she won’t, she must accept that the natural consequence of her choice is that she will rarely see her daughter for the next few years.

So they make a mess and your sister is keeping an eye ‘as much as she can’? Sounds chaotic - lots of people would struggle with a pair of marauding two year olds,
especially when their mother is struggling to keep an eye on them.

She cleans and tidies before she leaves. How did you propose 2 year old twins never make a mess at times?

Toddlers playing with stacking cups or building blocks and dropping them all over the floor (intentionally or not) rather than displayed in a beautiful creation is mess. It’s also normal developmental behaviour. It also stops being a mess once tidied away , as OP’s sister does.

No, she hasn’t nor would I imagine she would but then I reduced the visiting time myself so she didn’t get too overwhelmed. I do not agree in the OP mum banning the toddlers, she clearly hasn’t thought about her daughter or grandbabies when approaching the situation and like I said doesn’t appear to be prepared to compromise. I also do not think the children are ‘running wild’ or sister isn’t tidying up or keeping the kids in check. Seems the mum can not cope with kids being kids and playing only wanting grandchildren to sit quietly having screen time and that’s not healthy.

i also wouldn’t be cutting the mum off, but I wouldn’t be visiting anymore unless all were welcome. When mums relationship suffers with her grandchildren because it will maybe she will realise she needs to be more accommodating and make the effort also

Yes, under the described circumstances, I’d be relieved to have an excuse not to visit this woman!