to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

Just to clarify, all toddlers are lairy at some point 🤣

What types of things does your DM go out for as you say she is a recluse. Has she always been very reserved and found noise hard?
Does she want to go out and just can’t cope (not relating to seeing her grandchildren)?

I wonder if this is partly a protective mechanism. Maybe she knows her expectations of toddlers are unreasonable, but also knows that she genuinely can’t cope with the noise. She doesn’t want to be nasty with them or snap and shout so is distancing. Then when they get to age she can cope with she would see them.

Unfortunately relationships don’t really work like that.
I find with my autism some things very hard to deal with so I avoid. I don’t always explain because I’m ashamed as I know things should be natural - I should be able to cope. Here for example some people are saying you should be able to cope better with disruption for your own grandchildren, and it’s probably true (I don’t have children)

This

How often is your sister choosing to either visit your mum or stay at home with her family?
Is she expecting to see her mum so regularly this is an issue ? I know some people live in each others pockets.

This is rhe type of behaviour that results in people withdrawing or going no contact and then the grandparent wonders why they never see anyone 🤦🏽‍♀️🙄

If you had 4 children and your husband worked long hours you’d do anything to get out. Poor women. If it was my daughter I would do anything I could to help with her twins.

Dm is a twat. DSis should let her visit but if DM didn’t bother then DSIS shouldn’t make any further effort.
Id struggle to come back from that especially if unwilling to visit herself.

Where does your mum expect the twins to go when their mum and siblings are visiting their grandmother and their dad is at work?

Your DM gets the grandmother of the year award ! She's totally bu what does she expect your DSis to do.?

She visits DM once a week. DM likes to see the older two.

Not bring the twins.

That is not her concern.

Your Mother is early 70s as you say. Funny you forgot to mention that in your OP. I think some answers would have been far different.

Is it fair to assume she is finding it all too much.

Is it too much for you and your Sister to acknowledge that and, find some solution.

God help her if she ever needed help if either of you cannot even see what the utter chaos that amount of children can cause at that age.

She is fretting as old people do and does not need that amount of stress in her life at her age.

Find a way to work it out as she is perfectly entitled at her age to want peace and quiet in her life.

Surely it should be her concern? If she knows that there is nobody to look after the twins but still expects your sister to visit, without them the only way this can happen is either for the twins to be left on their own or for your sister to pay for childcare. Both option are ridiculous and one of them is neglectful and illegal.

God help her if she ever needed help if either of you cannot even see what the utter chaos that amount of children can cause at that age.

What chaos is being caused? The older are constantly on screens. She has no issue with them visiting. The twins talk and have the odd shriek. They make a mess sometimes as they are 2 years old. My sister cleans and tidies before she leaves and during play,

Find a way to work it out as she is perfectly entitled at her age to want peace and quiet in her life.

DM has presented her own solution of the twins banned from her home. That is the solution she wants and that is what she will get. My sister will not bring the twins anymore.

DM is entitled to do that. But she must have forgotten what 2 year olds are like. They sound like perfectly ordinary children doing what most kids their age do. My MIL was like this. Refused to childproof their home in the simplest of ways. Wanted DD and DS to be like the Victorian dolls she collected. Ornamental, unmoving, and silent. I’m petty. So, I probably wouldn’t visit unless and until all grandchildren are welcome. If DM wants to have time with the others, she can come to
your sister’s and deal with it.

OP, this thread is quite an experience.

DM sounds like she is, and has always been, very focussed on having an immaculate house and is not especially keen to leave it. She is also not one for compromise. In my experience of people getting older, these characteristics will not change and nothing you can suggest will solve the problem that she doesn't want the twins in her house. Is that correct so far?

If so, I can only see one viable option and that is, if you agree and can manage this, for you to include your older nieces and nephews in a few of your visits to DM. Then they get to continue to see DM occasionally.

If Dsis has some child free time facilitated by her DH having all the kids, she could pop in and visit but this will only be now and then because she has four children.

I think it is also worth explaining to DM that this is all she is left with if she won't allow the twins to visit/go to their house/meet elsewhere.

DM does not sound like she enjoys the company of children. I don't see this changing and I am sorry for you all. Perhaps when all her grandchildren are older, this situation can be revisited but DMs preferences for peace over people won't lead to a close relationship with her GC. This is her decision and not the fault of you or DSis.

How is her relationship with your DC? DM sounds like an unusual person and I expect this is not the only area of your lives where you have had to take her strongly held preferences into account. Is that how things are, OP? You sound very kind and level in the face of a very difficult situation. I imagine you are a huge support to DSis and I find it hard to understand some of the adversarial comments on this thread.

I am 73 and if I banned my two youngest grandchildren from visiting my house , then I would find it reasonable that my daughter would refuse to visit at all and I’d have no contact with any of the children .
if I was your sister I would refuse any further visits to her mum. Your mum will realise the error of her ways when she becomes older and in need of some care from your sister and your sister tells her we’re to go . Your mum is cutting herself off from her family and will end up old , alone and unwanted.

I think she has forgotten what 2 year olds are like. She used to take us to see her DM when she was in her 70s. Grandma was lovely and never minded us running around, playing and even making a mess sometimes.

Thank you. I think you've probably understood the situation quite well.

DM has always been very house-proud and she definitely values peace, quiet and order. She's also not someone who changes her mind easily once she's made it up, so I suspect you're right that this isn't something that will be resolved by finding the perfect argument.

I think the sad part is that the twins are simply being two-year-olds. They're not malicious or badly behaved children. They're energetic, can be noisy and messy at times, which is fairly normal for their age.

I agree that the practical reality is likely to be fewer visits. DSis can't easily leave twins behind whenever she wants to see DM, and DH works long hours. That doesn't mean she'll stop seeing DM altogether, just that it becomes much harder.

I do think DM needs to understand that choices have consequences. If she only wants the older children to visit, then inevitably she will see less of DSis and the family as a whole. That's not a punishment, just the reality of having four children, two of whom are toddlers.

I appreciate your balanced reply. Some responses have been surprisingly hostile.

Well in which case your sister can legitimately say seeing your mum and bringing the other 2 grandchildren over is not her concern.