to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia? Part 2

[haleey]

Continuing from previous thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5534178-to-think-it-is-acceptable-to-smack-someone-if-they-touch-your-body-even-if-they-have-dementia

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

YANBU.

A lot of people would reflexively slap someone's hand away. Some may even do more (hit or punch someone).

People have different backgrounds and prior experiences. Someone that has been assaulted previously or has trauma due to non consensual touch might hit out before they even realise they've done it. It's absolutely natural instinct that if someone sexually assaults you you hit back.

In terms of touching other parts of your body, I can understand why somebody might react similarly. If someone is willing to grab or touch your stomach, legs, it's not a stretch to imagine they might be willing to breach your bodily boundaries/consent in other ways. But of course there is context. Someone tapping you on your arm is very different to grabbing the top of your arm hard in a way that means you can't easily get away.

Women are constantly told they should just smile and let it go, question their own actions, what did they do to deserve it? Don't risk upsetting the aggressor further.

Reminders me of a Reddit post recently where a woman had been at a park with her baby when a large man with two care workers with him with apparently a learning disability had come over and grabbed them by the hair and yanked. They had a really sore neck, but it was the absolute terror of being assaulted in public while responsible for their baby that traumatised them. So many responses were 'he can't help it, it's unfair to expect him not to go to the park, have some empathy for him'. It was quite scary to see inside the minds of how some people think.

Discussion "a conversation or exchange of ideas and opinions between two or more people aimed at understanding a specific subject, exploring solutions, or reaching a decision"

I don't think you are doing that. You are right though, this particular 'discussion' is not for me.

I am only glad you are not visiting the care home my FIL lives in.

What is scary is that it is women criticising me for my reflex action due to PTSD from a sexual assault.

Even some of those who have been sexually assaulted themselves have been critical as well.

As for disabled children, in my experience most parents of disabled children do watch and step in when it comes to their interactions with others. If you know someone is vulnerable and you are caring for them then this is part of keeping them safe.

If your reflex action is to hit then you need to do all you reasonably can to not put yourself in that situation. You are not doing that.

My severely disabled adult son can hit when in distress. For example by the sound of screaming babies. He would be extremely unlikely to hit a member of the public, in fact he would hurt himself first, but we make sure that he is out of reach of members of the public when in situations where triggers are likely.

@Seeingadistance I am saying it is a poor analogy.

British visitor to Spain - best to modify their behaviour to avoid harm and inconvenience/discomfort.

Visitor to nursing home - best to modify their behaviour to avoid harm and inconvenience/discomfort.

Every so often I see news reports of visitors to safari parks who choose to get out their car for a stroll round the lions’ enclosure. Before this thread I wondered what kind of person would do that.

Watch out everyone - visiting a nursing home is like getting out of your car for a stroll round the lions enclosure.

The OP is visiting a family member who she has some concerns about due to where they are living. She's not going into an unsafe situation for shits and giggles. It might be worth a try to see if the staff can arrange a safe space for her to sit with her family member but that depends on how competent they are.

Yep I would also swat their hand away. What exactly do you understand the action “swat” to mean?

Hit.

Apparently it depends who is doing it. If they have dementia or a disabled child then there should be no reflexive reaction.

It’s your startling inability to modify your behaviour even though you are fully aware that doing things differently will be beneficial for you. You would rather continue to put yourself willingly into potentially harmful situations.

Well then you’d be incorrect.
If I punched them in the face then you would have a point.

This thread makes me fervently hope that none of the people who would hit the elderly confused work with disabled children or adults. I do and would instantly expect to lose my job if I lashed out because I was grabbed. Rightly so. I have been grabbed, bitten, pinched, punched over the years, as have my colleagues and not once has anyone retaliated by hitting a disabled person.

Those situations are not comparable. If you work professionally with disabled adults or children, you’re trained, supervised and prepared for behaviours that can happen in that setting. You’re in work mode, usually with support around you, policies in place and an understanding that managing challenging behaviour is part of the role.

A random visitor in a care home or member of the public isn’t operating in that environment. They may have their own history of assault or trauma and react instinctively if someone suddenly grabs intimate parts of their body such as myself. That’s very different from a trained professional knowingly entering a care role where physical behaviours are an understood occupational risk.

People also keep talking as though every reaction is a calculated “punishment” or deliberate assault on a vulnerable person, when it is a reflexive defensive response. Those are not the same thing.

I have a point. It's like calling assaulting children "smacking".

This is never acceptable and I would do the same. Why should we put up with that?

Who is "we" in this scenario?

OP, the FIRST time this happened what did you do?

I hope you are nowhere near vulnerable people.

I worked yesterday at a care home and I discussed this thread with my colleagues who are nurses, carers, activities co ordinator,a GP that called in etc and the 100% consensus was that OP is 'is very unlucky ' to have been assaulted 4 times when visiting!!
Non of my colleagues who between us have 70-80years experience working in this area have ever known a visitor to be assaulted in any way by a resident!
We might have the odd feisty resident with Dementia but they are managed by the staff.
Edited to say that any visitor who touches a resident in a hostile manner would be told to leave immediately.

That's no excuse. If 'vulnerable' people behave in such ways they should be managed better by the staff to ensure it does not happen. Sorry but if a grown man is groping me they are going to know about it!

I find it incredible that this has happened to the OP on four different occasions and apparently involving a different resident each time.