to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia? Part 2

[haleey]

Continuing from previous thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5534178-to-think-it-is-acceptable-to-smack-someone-if-they-touch-your-body-even-if-they-have-dementia

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

Because that’s how I know I would deal with it. If that’s how I relive someone’s unwanted hand from MY body then that’s good enough for me.

Edited - no relive, remove.

Maybe and maybe not.

Even without PTSD I think that this swatting a hand away reaction is so commonplace that any care plan involving someone with loss of inhibitions should be taking it into account.

You’re still not getting it.

You are in a closed environment.

The people who live there are ill.

Most of them, statistically, have some form of dementia or are so physically frail that they need to be in residential care.

The residents are not free to come and go as they please.

They are looked after by nursing staff and carers.

Due to their illness they may behave in unpredictable and socially inappropriate ways.

Visiting a nursing home is not like visiting a coffee shop or any other place where the general population are.

In a nursing home it is sensible to be aware that you are among people whose illness means that they may hit, spit, shout abuse, touch inappropriately, etc.

Given all of the above it would be wise to accept that and change your behaviour while in that very particular environment.

It’s really not difficult. Be aware of your surroundings, keep an eye on the other residents - what they’re doing and where they are, move away if they approach you, ask staff for help.

I can understand it happening once, with the OP having no understanding of nursing home residents and their behaviour.

However it has happened 4 times, and it seems involving 4 different residents. As the OP does not have dementia she could have learned from the first experience and modified her behaviour/ liaised with staff/met her grandfather in a private room to avoid it happening again.

But the OP is repeatedly scornful of the idea that she should in any way change her behaviour while in the company of people with dementia.

It's a discussion.

Or are you the thread police?

In answer to the OP: swatting/slapping a hand away is fine. Anything more, unless they are assaulting you, is too much.

This. It is absolutely no use hoping the culprits will change their behaviour. They can’t.

It's ridiculous how much we infantalise people too.
I've have plenty of experience with dementia and also learning disabilities and difficulties both personally and in my work.
Noone would just expect someone to not react to being groped or assaulted by a client.
Obviously you can't treat it in the same way as you would with someone with capacity, but you don't just ignore it either. You'd report it and it would need to be taken seriously and something needs to be in their care plan to mitigate the risks of it happening.
If someone slapped someone's hand for it or removed their hand or pushed away then I think that would have to be noted too. I'm assuming we are not talking about someone hitting them as punishment or revenge, and we are just talking about reflex actions??

I don't think it's OK to go round hitting disabled vulnerable people.
I don't think people should be assaulted or groped by service users either, and staff and the public as well as other service users need to be safe too

Lots of people with learning disabilities and dementia are quite capable of knowing that they mustn't do this and if they aren't, then they need supervision at all times to stop it happening

People prefer to think I got the cricket bat out of my bag and hit them several times on the head. Hence that is why they said on the last thread that I should be barred from the home and arrested.

Surprisingly the care managers or staff did not call the police on me for assault.

Look at the previous posts.

People are determined it is assault even though the staff at the care home have not involved the police on any occasion.

She thinks she is the thread police 😂

In my case, it is a reflex action due to PTSD from sexual assault.

Noone would just expect someone to not react to being groped or assaulted

I shouldn't react apparently.

Oh my I didn’t read the entire previous post. Thats wild.
I was asked if I was happy to hit disabled children because the poster wanted to work out what I was happy with!
No one is on about children and in any case I’m sure you aren’t happy about the situation as whole.
I know exactly what you mean by smacking the hand away - I refer to it as swatting or batting - but I know exactly what you mean and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable reaction when there’s been unwanted and inappropriate touching.

This.

Here’s another analogy for the OP and those who don’t think she should change her behaviour in response to what has happened to her no less than 4 times.

Last year I was walking on a public foothpath when I was attacked by dogs. I was dragged to the ground and bitten. I was treated at hospital for my injuries, I reported the attack to Police and Dog Warden, I asked local people about the dogs and discovered that these dogs have a history of aggression and being allowed to foam freely.

Have I modified my behaviour as a result? Yes. I have not walked on that footpath again and when walking elsewhere, if I see unrestrained dogs, I can choose to change route and sometimes abandon my walk altogether.

If I were to adopt the OP’s approach to a known risk, I would have been back on that path the next day - got bitten, and the next day - got bitten etc.

If you have experienced any kind of harm, and you do not have the power to eliminate the cause of the harm, it makes sense to change your behaviour to avoid it happening again.

In my situation it was unrestrained dogs with an irresponsible owner. In the OP’s situation it’s a nursing home with residents whose impulse control has been destroyed by dementia.

Now that it has been explained to the OP that people with dementia are in the nursing home she visits, it is her responsibility to use her wits to avoid harm to herself.

People have also pointed out that this indicates a badly managed home and are surprised that you aren’t worried about your grandfather living in such a chaotic environment.

In the last thread one poster described a similar incident and that had been reported by the nursing home to the Police and other outside agencies which have oversight of nursing homes.

It is wild!

The post is not about disabled children but people are determined to make it sound like people are intentionally hitting disabled people.

Thank you for understanding what I meant by smacking - it was a a reflex action to stop the unwanted and inappropriate touching which did make it stop.

I asked her to start a new one as I thought it was interesting. So blame me!

ALL of them? Nah.
You’re only responding to the post which suit you.
I ask again…..have you had treatment for your PTSD?

Absolutely. This is not victim blaming, it’s sheer common sense.

As are the elderly men. From the women.

That’s not how assault is defined

Like the low IQ lads who raced those girls?

Swatting a hand away is fine.
Being aware of your surroundings is also fine.
Putting up with inappropriate touching "because dementia" is not fine but see above for situational awareness.

No point asking this:

Where has anyone said you enjoy hitting disabled people?

If you can't be bothered to read the past posts.

You’re only responding to the post which suit you.

I can respond to what I want, that is how discussion forums work. Maybe this is not the place for you if you don't get that?

I never said it was 🙄