to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

Care quality commission who regulate and inspect carehomes but in serious situations you can call the police and adult social services safeguarding teams

So what if that's true? Do you think men with dementia (a disease which can literally calcify parts of your brain so you can't remember your own name, your children's faces, how to take a piss on your own, and robs you of your personality and dignity) are faking this bit of it to touch up care home visitors? What about the women who do it like PP's mum? Is it just "well they're men and I don't like them so they deserve a smack even if they can't control themselves"?

Exactly

Well exactly its a horrible condition and nobody knows how its going to affect them it robs people of their dignity both males and females i wouldnt wish it on anyone

What an odd thing to say- it's hardly a fair comparison with what the OP went through.

Don’t be ridiculous 🙄 zero patience with this nonsense.

Well one day it could be you.

What a strange comment!
I actually have a fair amount of experience of family members with dementia and Alzheimer’s . It a horrible disease which progresses with time.

I don’t think they are faking it - I never said that. What is known about this disease is that behaviours and memories from years before are relived. What I said was, it would be interesting to understand what % of groping etc is done by men as by women. Those of an age now 70+ come from an era where behaviour towards women wasn’t seen or challenged in the way it is now. That is a fact. Yes, some people will behave inappropriately due to the disease. Others would have behaved that way anyway.

I also have personal experience of it. It’s a horrible, upsetting disease which is extremely hard to manage, no argument there at all. I’m finding the way a few people are blithely misrepresenting people’s views and posts here supporting OP’s involuntary actions as a sexual assault survivor with CPTSD pretty revealing. Not engaging further.

Yes, I've acknowledged that in a previous comment - while the specific example was fair, the unfounded generalisations weren't.

Personally, I'd also be saddened by someone calling my parents 'pervy' if they had dementia, and sexually violated people. But I wouldn't be upset with a member of the public, visiting their family member, slapping my parent's hand away if they groped them. I'd be angry with the care home for allowing that to happen, to both the victim and my parent.

I do think that OP should push this issue with the care home, and escalate the issue by reporting them to whoever the appropriate authorities are, if need be. It does seem counterproductive to let it go, and not do anything more, meaning there may be more incidents to both her, or others.

Posters on this thread seem to be forgetting that a member of staff witnessed both the groping, and OP's instinctive reaction, and their response was to scold her and not take any other action to ensure no repeats of the behaviour. So clearly, it's not a well run facility, if they're just brushing off assault.

If they're shrugging off male residents doing that to visitors, what might the male residents be doing to vulnerable female residents, who can't advocate for themselves? So for that reason, I hope OP does complain higher up. Perhaps she worries that there might be resentment that's taken out on her grandfather if she does so? But she still should, really.

But either way, I don't think that slapping away the hand of a grown man (who is stronger and more physically intimidating than a tiny child, and whose violation might trigger a trauma response) is unreasonable in the moment. I have sympathy for OP's reaction, and I might react the same way. A violation isn't any less triggering or distressing just because the perpetrator is unaware that they're doing anything wrong.

I think it's possible to feel OP was reasonable - but should report it - and that the man is not technically at fault, that neither of them are being safeguarded, and that the care home is the entity at fault here.

I also think that if these patients are wandering freely instead of being in a dementia ward (what I've always experienced in rest homes where I live), or if a visitor is accessing the dementia ward, then they should be warned ahead of time that several of the residents may attempt to be inappropriate, and either escort them to their relative's room unmolested, or make it very clear how to deal with any approaches. Forewarned is forearmed.

Patience enough to reply.

OPs lashing out might be involuntary, but repeatedly going into the care home where there are vulnerable disabled people who she is foreseeably going to assault is voluntary.

She has not proposed anything she wants to be done to remedy the situation or engaged with any steps she might take to take her and them out of this obviously unsafe situation. Her solution seems to be I
"I've "smacked" disabled residents 4 times in their own home, I'll do it again"

Oh so your point is that most of the men doing this were probably perverts all along who are now just getting away with it? Presumably it follows that the old women who have these symptoms were always perverted too?

That is a really horrible pov so - genuinely - if I've misunderstood you please correct me.

If i haven't, please to share any research or data on that - given that there is plenty available which shows that this sort of behaviour (just like soiling yourself, randomly screaming, hitting loved one's) is an effect of your brain dying, and not your "true self" coming out.

A small sample size, but here:

"Men were more significantly more likely to exhibit disinhibition, aggressiveness, and dietary change (e.g. overeating, sweet craving). Women were more likely to demonstrate neglect in personal care."

Another study shows that: "[...]females tend to present with more depressive symptoms than males particularly regarding anxiety, sadness, and multiple somatic complaints. Conversely males tend to present with more aggressive behavior, which may be sexually inappropriate behavior or other types of aggressive behavior. "

And in this resource (PDF):

"[Inappropriate sexual behaviours] frequently co-occur with other behavioural disturbances and are most commonly found in men, although the exact sex ratios are not clear. According to one survey, the observed behaviours depended on gender. Specifically, men were more physically aggressive, whereas women were more verbal."

It seems as though men are consistently more sexually physically inappropriate than women - although women do display sexually physically inappropriate behaviour too.

None of that supports your argument that the men who have this symptom are just old perverts, does it. Lots of (most?) illnesses present differently in men v women. Correlation doesn't equal causation. And you haven't answered the question about the women (like PPs poor mum) who have this symptom. Former pervert as well in your eyes?

If it's more prevalent in men it is just as likely to be related to the fact men remain fertile and produce testosterone until they die.

The finding you quoted above that "Women were more likely to demonstrate neglect in personal care." is interesting isn't it. If your "it's just old behaviour coming back" argument was true, wouldn't you expect that to be more prevalent in men? If MN is anything to go by, women have higher personal care standards than men, on a population level.

Or even if your "it's just old behaviour coming back" argument stands true, why isn't it just as likely it's men who were physically affectionate (consensually) with their wives or partners before they were ill?

But you've jumped to the conclusion that they were probably perverts all along.

The one thing we do know about the men OP "smacked" is that they're disabled. It's funny how many times OP has mentioned victim blaming and yet so many on here have been willing to adopt the "smack the perverts!" line.

@Confuserr

Erm... Appropriate to your username, I'm very confused, as I haven't made that argument? You're arguing against something I'm not saying.

The pp wondering about the rates of men vs women above, simply made me wonder if there are sex differences - and so I looked it up and shared what I found, along with links so people can look into it in more depth themselves, if they please.

Duh. My fault, sorry. I presumed your post was from @notthatoldchestnut

Of course pervy young men may get dementia and then display over-sexualised behaviour, but (correct me if I’m wrong with research please) I don’t think the behaviour dementia patients display reflects their younger personalities.
My FIL has displayed over-sexualised behaviour and absolutely was not a pervert when he was well.

One would think by now, after 4 times, you would able to preempt tbe situation, and move out of tbe way, or srr grandad in his room

I don't agree with smacking somebody with dementia (I'm a nurse so that would be a big no no!) But I don't see an issue with telling them not to do it and moving their hand/stopping them.
I know some will have been dirty old men before they got dementia but many will have just lost their internal filter with their diagnosis.
It always makes me sad when a relative tells you that their husband would be mortified if he knew what he'd said or done.😟

Who keeps hitting disabled people? The op is not talking about putting a fragile old man against a wall and belting hell out of him. And if any of your suggestions were in place it wouldn't have happened in the first place. It's what you do if it is allowed to happen and the answer seems to be you just let them do what they want to and at no point defend yourself from sexual assault. And some of these dementia patients are still big and strong just mentally not capable.

And one day it could be you.

Helpful.

Exactly. Yes I have smacked them once as a reflex. I am not beating the living daylights out of them. Not every man in a care home is shuffling, small and weak.

Great advice. People who have been assaulted need to preempt further potential assault.

How is it ageism?