to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

I just think its fine to swat someone's hand away - especially if its a man, as, whatever the intention, the effect is different from a man or a woman

Dementia is an awful disease yes. And being groped is also awful. We dont need to accept being groped.

Maybe stop pontificating then? If you don’t understand something it just makes you look foolish to hold forth about it.

I think I’m finally out of this disgusting thread. It’s one of the most ableist and ignorant I’ve ever encountered on MN and that’s quite an achievement. I hope and pray that none of the posters here ever experience a loved one disappearing in front of them and becoming something they don’t recognise as the person they knew, because this horrible disease is eating away at their brain. Trying to get the point across that dementia doesn’t care what sex your are, or what kind of person you’ve been in the past is like banging your head against a brick wall. I’m hiding the whole depressing mess and off to find something happier to do.

I dont think i do look foolish, i think youre just angry. If someone grabs my boob, its okay to swat their hand away. Noones asking for dementia sufferers to be imprisoned fgs.

No self awareness either.

Okay well now youre just attacking me 🙄

No, it’s up to the staff, as legally responsible for safeguarding as I’m sure you know. Not to visitors, who might only be visiting once.

If the home or the relatives of the residents involved had wanted to press charges then they absolutely could have done, with the full force of the law behind them. In the eyes of the law retaliating with force to someone who lacks the capacity to understand the consequences of their actions is assault. And interestingly what OP and a few other posters describe her as assault, actually isn’t. There is no scope for prosecuting someone who has no understanding of their actions. As I’ve said before, it’s why we don’t prosecute babies and children, or those with severe learning disabilities or mental health conditions. It’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. I’m out. Hiding the thread.

Does it occur to you you may be a bit too invested to give unbiased and reasonable advice on this?

I'd advise him (or his representatives) to notify the police, the CQC and the Local Council and sue the shit out of the care home for not protecting him from being able to assault someone and from being assaulted.

The police can decide what to do with the OP but I'd expect they would most likely focus on the failures of the home. They're not safeguarding and clearly not recording and reporting incidents properly - acts of serious or repeated violence should all be reported to to the LA and the CQC and they would have intervened if they had been notified.

Sorry but it’s most definitely the responsibility of visitors to report anything of concern - how else do you expect the care home to address it when things go wrong ? OP visited four times and was inappropriately touched. If staff weren’t there to observe how else are they supposed to know. There are many alternatives to resorting to physical retaliation.

I bet the details of the incidents you’re recalling during your “tenure” aren’t identical to OP’s, are they?

Exactly this!!!

YABU. As a social worker that receives these type of safeguarding referrals frequently I think it’s very wrong to ‘smack’ at someone with dementia and can cause a great deal of distress . Removing their hand and stating firmly ‘ no . That’s not the kind of behaviour that is acceptable’ is one thing, but there is no need to resort to smacking when they no longer have any concept of these types of behaviours being wrong .

Oh look i dont want to upset people who have spouses with dementia

I was just advocating for batting away an old man's hand, thats it, not asking for them to be hung drawn and quartered

Dementia is a serious disease

Being groped by old men isn't bloody pleasant though, let me tell you

All the best to those living with the disease in their families xx

Have you considered just staying in his room with him when you visit instead of going to the communal area. Does he also have dementia. How hard are your smacks, would you smack your grandad if he did something similar. Have you ever just tried saying please don't touch me. There are quite a lot of questions you don't seem to want to answer.

If you wouldn’t do it to a child then you shouldn’t do it to an adult with dementia. These are people whose cognitive function is very reduced, they have no more judgement than a child about what is appropriate.

That said, it shouldn’t be up to you to deal with unwanted touching from residents. And if you see it happening between residents then it’s a safeguarding issue and you should tell the manager.

I fully agree with you, as apparently do the majority. Don’t worry about it.

Yanbu. I think swatting or reactively pushing someone away is acceptable if they grab you, sexually or otherwise. It may be sad that they have dementia/a disability etc but that doesn't mean women should accept being grabbed.

Tbh if carers can't prevent 'grabbing' then the person shouldn't be in close proximity to members of the public. I appreciate in this case you were in a nursing home, so a bit more tricky.

I think this is by far the view of most people here. Nuanced, considers the vulnerable man, considers the OP.

No one should ever assault a man with dementia but swatting away a hand assaulting you is the right of any person.

It takes an incredibly unkind reading of what the OP wrote to interpret her words as assault.

There are some people absolutely determined and committed to displaying absolutely no empathy towards the OP, absolutely no nuance when she is the person displaying ongoing kindness to her grandfather in spite of these experiences which given her own history are deeply unpleasant.

So we agree that the resident would have been assaulted by OP. And would be at no fault whatsoever.

Well said. This thread reminds me of other threads where there is an obvious clash of rights. Compassion is needed on both sides.

"Clash of rights" is not applicable.

What about my right not to have my hair pulled by my friend's young children? Is it OK if I instinctively "smack" a child who pulls my hair? OK if this happens 4 times and I keep going round to her house, getting my hair pulled, and smacking her child? And have no interest in hearing about what I might to do avoid getting my hair pulled because I just plan to smack them again if it keeps happening?

She described what happened, she batted his hand away as a reflex action to panicking when being grabbed. She says she has PTSD. It absolutely is a conflict of rights.

Or keeping people away from them. To you it's a care home, to them it's their home, you don't have a right to be there