to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

Presumably you're a PI solicitor or barrister.
Consider this factual matrix for me.
Person A has dementia, lacks capacity. Lives in a home. Person X, a visitor, attends the home. A touches X inappropriately and X hits A.
This happens 4 times.
The staff observe it and take no steps to separate A from X, or other visitors. X is allowed to continue to visit and to hit A.
Advise A.

What do you think it should be?

If a person has the same amount of understanding and self control as a small child, is it reasonable to smack a small child for grabbing you? It’s understandable that it’s upsetting because in fact it is an adult especially if you have been assaulted in the past but rationally it is not the same as an intentional assault at all. Elderly people will have reduced mobility and are physically a lot weaker and more vulnerable than younger adults so the risk of escalation is low.
In an ideal world should people be able to visit these facilities and this not be a potential problem - of course. We don’t live in a perfect world. These things do happen. It is possible to request one on one visiting in a separate visitors or family room in most facilities, especially if you explain the situation to the staff.
Some people have been assaulted by their own family members with mental illness or dementia etc. It is one of the more unpleasant and heartbreaking realities of life.

I’m not saying that at all. And I fully agree that the takeaway for women can be the same. But we’re not talking about the world revolving around men are we ? We’re talking about specific vulnerable elderly men with degenerative brain disease robbing them of their capacity to understand their own actions. The assumption that they’re all pervs in spite of that seems to be pervading the discussion. A poster upthread had it bang on when she made the comparison of a toddler grabbing body parts and ducking under skirts. The level of understanding we’re discussing here is roughly the same. No-one is diminishing the experience of the women at the receiving end - just asking for the application of common sense.

You’re asking people to approve of the assault you’re committing. This didn’t go quite how you were expecting, did it?

Reading more on this thread, I really hope the posters cheering on the OP are never ever employed in a care home.

and I hope they never develop dementia , or watch someone they love, develop dementia.

The lack of understanding and compassion is shocking.

I would imagine that opens the care home up to the same type of legal action the poster described. There should be a care plan in place for each resident. Where that resident is known to lack capacity to understand their own actions, the care plan should involve steps to keep them safe and minimise the possibility of assaulting visitors/other residents. It’s not, and nor should it be, on visitors to take it on themselves to ‘punish a vulnerable resident in what is supposed to be a safe space, for which they are likely to be paying a hefty sum.

We're also talking about a woman who has trauma from a previous assault, isn't fascinating how little weight you give the impact that can have on a woman? Where's your common sense in that regard? Why is your sole focus on the man?

Obviously, no one should experience unwanted sexualised behaviour from a patient with dementia-that goes without saying.

However, It is never EVER acceptable to ‘smack’ someone with dementia and I’m horrified that so many people think it’s ok.
If this was a 10 year old child with additional needs, do people think it’s still ok to smack? I doubt it.

This man in question has been badly let down by those meant to care for him.

Regarding your granddad, I would be looking for an alternative placement for him because the one he’s in sounds dangerous if staff allow this sort of thing to happen to visitors!! How can you be sure he is safe when you’re not there.

No-one is blaming OP for what happens to her at the hands of other residents They are. Blossomtoes essentially said it was OP’s fault for going too near male residents.

Because the man isn’t responsible for his actions and the woman is. It’s not a reflex because she intends to do it again, nor will she take any steps to avoid being touched.

Clearly not. I suspect OP knows how she’s coming across, but with each post she seems to be doubling down. This is either rage bait, or she’s lacking in self awareness to the point where she’s actually a danger to the residents she encounters each time she visits. I’m genuinely at a loss to know why she even started the thread.

In my experience they aren't kept away in hospitals, men with dementia are freely allowed to wander into the womens' bays. I had to buy my mother a rape alarm as more than one man kept trying to get into bed with her and the buzzer didn't work and she couldn't shout as she's had a stroke. Happened again recently when she was in another hospital. The staff take no responsibility for what's going on,it's really shocking.

Because the man is vulnerable, he has dementia and is in a residential/nursing home.

The woman has capacity; someone with dementia advanced enough to be in a care home, does not. The OP can understand ( if she could be bothered) that this is an entirely different situation.

As a nurse who works at a care home I would definitely report a relative if they assaulted a resident.That relative would be barred from visiting because we need to protect our residents! I would loose my PIN if I ignored this fact.

I don’t disagree with @blossomtoes OP has the capacity to understand that the facility she’s visiting will contain residents with dementia. She has several options open to her meaning that she doesn’t have to tolerate the behaviour - including making a complaint to the care home itself who have a duty of care to protect the residents she’s actively intending to assault if they so much as lay a finger on her. She can ask for a private room in which to visit, meaning she doesn’t have to come into contact with other residents. This is their safe space, not OP’s.

So you dont believe in PTSD?

Agree . The ignorance on this thread is breathtaking!

You have no idea of these mens mental capacity.

This is why we need strictly single-sex wards. The man with dementia (it’s an extreme kind of brain damage) cannot help his behaviour.

It’s also complete unacceptable for your mother to be put in the position she was in. Just awful. But it isn’t dealt with by physically assaulting the man with dementia.

I’m so sorry to hear about your mother’s situation. I saw my father’s mother have to deal with this in an emergency care home. Once we could get her to a decent place, where they kept the men out of women’s rooms, she was much calmer.

My question was more in general principle than this specific situation - regardless of where you encountered a person like this, at what point do you draw the line and react with force? With him trying to grope under your skirt? Snog and grope your 12-year-old daughter? Rape you? When is it acceptable to respond with reasonable force?

A 70-year-old man with dementia can be stronger and much more intimidating than a 5'2 woman in her forties. Or it could be a young, strong man with severe mental impairment.

It's absolutely a horrible, heartbreaking thing, but I think to say that women should never respond with force to a mentally impaired man who is sexually assault her is horrific.

There are even posters saying it 'isn't rape' if a man forces his penis into a woman's vagina, if he lacks capacity. I understand that legally it might not be something that can be prosecuted, but it is absolutely rape in a practical sense and in terms of the impact, and to deny that is disgusting.

So I'm just curious about the general attitudes in play here, regarding a woman using reasonable force against a man with a mental impairment who is sexually assaulting her, to some degree.

There are ways to stop someone touching you inapropriately without being violent towards them.

Explain how when I have PTSD from being sexually assaulted and my reflex is to smack someone who assaults me.

Of course I do it doesn’t negate common sense though. She still has capacity.

No-one is blaming OP for what happens to her at the hands of other residents

It is fine for you to agree with Blossomtoes. But don’t say the above then. As clearly you both blame OP for getting assaulted.

ETA You are agreeing with this:
*It seems very odd to put yourself in touching distance.

You can visit without getting within touching distance. I’m really sorry if this sounds like victim blaming but if you know some of the old guys get handsy stay out of reach* .

Errr I really think you need to educate yourself on Dementia and MC .