to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

Really, they cannot help it. Think about it - do you know what dementia does to a person? It destroys their brain. So behaviour goes back to childlike instinct.

Remove these men’s hands, tell them firmly , No,

but mostly, have some fucking compassion, and hope you never see someone you love literally disappear from themselves.

RTFT

I did. I don’t think any woman should have to shrug her shoulders and stay quiet after a sexual assault, whether the person meant it or not.

Yes, actually it is. Violence against those who are vulnerable and lack capacity is actually a criminal offence. And I’m hoping it wont be too long before you find this out for yourself in practical terms. Why am I not surprised that this comes as a shock to you ? In legal terms it’s not possible for a person with dementia, or otherwise lacking the capacity to understand their own actions, to be convicted of assault. It’s why we don’t prosecute children or those with severe learning disabilities or overwhelming and severe mental health conditions.

My own mum had advanced vascular dementia - her lack of capacity was accompanied by distress and pain, and in rare, fleeting moments of lucidity, absolute panic at the brief realisation of her situation. The disease slowly stripped her of everything she had been during her life and the person she was had long gone by the time she passed away a few weeks ago. The thought of myself or anyone else laying a hand on her in response to any of her behaviours as a result of this terrible disease was and is utterly unthinkable. That’s the kind of distress you will be laying at the door of the loved ones of the people you so casually dismiss as unimportant in comparison to your own bloated ego. Do you not think they suffer enough having to watch the distress their relatives suffer without having them intentionally physically assaulted in the process ?

Can you really not see the harm your behaviour is causing ? The people you’re physically assaulting have no intent against you - they’re not sex pests, it’s simply that the disease has taken away any inhibitions and reasoning skills they had and rendered them helpless in their own skins. So what on God’s good earth makes you think that lashing out and smacking their hands away is going to do anything but confuse them even more and add to their misery ? Because all that’s happening is that they perceive that they are being ‘punished’ but have no idea why. You seem happy to have that on your conscience. I have no idea why.

There’s a world of difference between staying quiet and physically assaulting someone who has no capacity to understand what they’re doing. There are other things you can do with the understanding that there is no intent on their part and no capacity to control actions. In this situation many posters would be advocating that those with such severe conditions be put into residential care. And that’s the crux of the matter. They already are, and still have no protection from people like OP who put their own sense of self above common sense and empathy. No-one is blaming OP for what happens to her at the hands of other residents. What does justify blame is her reaction, which is actually criminal.

Fuck me, so now we have the excuse trotted out that men grab women between their legs because of sensory issues and we should just give them a blanket. Unbelievable.

There is quite a bit of victim blaming going on sadly.

I’m thinking yes. There doesn’t seem to be any common sense applied to any element of this issue on OPs part.

The OP is knowingly going into a place which is home for people with illnesses which adversely affect their judgement and behaviour. It is not victim blaming to suggest that she needs to be aware of this and take appropriate action, which includes watching out for other residents approaching, moving away from them etc. Having been touched inappropriately once she should have been aware that this can happen and worked out how to avoid in the future - not continue to allow residents to get too close and end up assaulting them.

And it is assault. The nursing home is at fault here for not making it clear to the OP that her behaviour is unacceptable and allowing her to continue in this way.

My DF is in a nursing home and when one of the other residents went to take a biscuit from my DF my DM hit that other resident on the hand. Staff witnessed this happening and it was explained to my DM, as it has been to the OP, that the man was ill. His wife was informed and she chose for it not to be reported to the police. It was apparently reported to Social Work and they did contact my DM. If it had happened again then my DM would have been banned from visiting the nursing home and they would have been right to take that action.

Nursing homes are not happy places to visit - they are inhabited by people whose illness can make them behave in strange and inappropriate ways. Visiting can be challenging and the OP needs to understand that and change her thinking and behaviour. If I were a visitor and saw her hitting residents I would certainly report it to the home manager and if more than once also to the police.

For us that swat hands away we just want the touching to stop. In that moment that is what's taking priority for us. The feelings of the person that does it aren't the point and the responsibility for managing that should fall on the carers not random visitors.

You are not the victim OP. Not by a long chalk. You have capacity. You have options and you can protect yourself in other ways - put yourself out of reach. Which is more than can be said for the vulnerable residents you have no compunction in physically assaulting as a first response.

This. All day long.

And sadly no one has answered my questions about where to draw the line - in a care home or otherwise, at what point is it acceptable to use reasonable force to stop an assault by someone who isn't in control of themselves, if there is no one stepping in to help us?

This.

All day long.

Apparently, assault should be tolerated according to the victim blamers on this thread.

There are other options before resorting to physicality. And let’s not forget that the ‘swatting’ is a criminal offence. You are assaulting a vulnerable person with no capacity to understand their actions. That protection is there for a reason. And we’re talking about the setting of a care home here. There is no excuse for visitors not to be aware that there are vulnerable residents without capacity to understand their actions. And the feelings of the person with dementia, or who is otherwise incapacitated absolutely is the point. How do you think it feels to perceive that you have just been physically punished and to have absolutely no idea what you’ve done to deserve it. Because you have no capacity to understand.

You understand. Thank you.

IF this is a genuine thread and I was the carehome manager I would only allow op to visit their relative with an arranged time and in the relatives room. I'd be interested to hear if op relative has dementia, if they witness the smacking and how hard the smacks are, presumably there's some verbal going on too.

I don't think anyone is saying it's ok to be sexually assaulted. It's more about understanding the condition. My Mils behaviour can become very sexualised. Even with my husband and his brothers, her own sons. We always just redirect her never scold and certainly never physically hit her.

Nope. No-one is saying that. At all. Only that a physical response is inappropriate in any circumstance involving a vulnerable, sick person who has no capacity to understand their actions or why they are being punished for it. It’s been explained to you ad nauseam that in the eyes of the law someone without the capacity to understand their own actions cannot be guilty of assault. As I said before, you are not the victim. You have capacity - which is more than can be said for the people you seem to regard as fair game for punishment.

Women who are sexually assaulted aren't victims? What are you, the British arm of the taliban? Do you think a woman feels any less violated if the man who grabs her between the legs and grins at her, has dementia? Or are you saying how the woman feels is irrelevant because the world revolves around men and how they feel only?

Well said!

Because PTSD isn't real? Who the hell are you to claim OP had full control of her reactions?

As a random member of the public I most likely haven't received any training on how to handle a disinhibited dementia patient so I may not have other options in that moment. Members of the public also have no responsibility for the feelings of the patients, that's for the staff to manage.

A lot of people here including the OP don't seem to understand what dementia can do to a person.

My mum had severe vascular dementia. In the hospital and in the care home she used to grab onto people and would sometimes pinch/twist their skin. I think at times if she'd had something sharp she could have stabbed somebody! She would call people names (including racist ones despite not being racist) and accuse them of locking her up and stealing her things and making out she was crazy. She was confused and afraid and genuinely thought people were doing those things to her.

There are ways to stop someone touching you inapropriately without being violent towards them. I hope no one ever thought it was ok to slap my mum regardless of her behaviour.