Catholic guilt?

[Felixfox]

I only went to catholic school for 3 years (first 3 years of school) and I am CONSTANTLY feelingly guilty . Is it the school or just me? It was a terrible place. I remember one of the fathers coming into our classroom just as a pupil was leaving as he was feeling sick. Father promptly sent him back to his desk for us all to pray, this boy was physically sick but we had to carry on with the prayer. His parting shot was a question. To a bunch of 6 year olds. Do you all pray before bed at night? We all mumbled yes. To which he replied,’Good, because otherwise you will go to hell.’ It scared the crap out of me. V complicated story with parents and my brother and I going there. My mother was a nun and left
’God will never forgive you’ and so maybe to usage some hideous and unfair guilt from that was to send us to a catholic school. The point is, I am nearly 50 and I still feel guilty all the time about pretty much anything. Will it go? I’ve tried counseling. What do I do? How do you leave a part of yourself behind?

And how do these Christian values work in non Christian countries ?

I do not think Humanists have appropriated christian values at all. Their values are based on kindness and decency.

Regarding humanists, I recall their "Good without God" slogan which I always thought was very revealing.

Christians are Christians because their starting point is to recognise that we are all fundamentally flawed people.

I find it concerning to start with a stance of "I am good" especially when it is a self-referential stance, with no objective, distinct standard to compare to.

And yet many countries that have never had any kind of significant Christian tradition have somehow evolved an ethics that is essentially similar, based on being compassionate, just and loving, not causing harm to others etc. Also ‘Christian values’ considerably predate Christianity. Aquinas was essentially adapting Aristotle.

That’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying that a truly adult ethics involves acting with justice, compassion and generosity

without the carrot of eternal salvation or the stick of damnation. That it’s possible, indeed necessary, to be good without thinking some invisible but supposedly omnipotent deity will reward you.

Well. A few hours ago the Pope released his first major theological document.

And here it is ( Link to Vatican, so should be safe):

Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Leo XIV Magnifica Humanitas (15 May 2026) (vatican.va)

Skimming through it before a more detailed read, I see this:

"129. Christian humanism does not reject science or technology, but embraces them with gratitude and realism, and grounds them within a higher vocation. "

I am not going to comment before I fully get the context, But is the Pope appropriating Humanism here ? Rhetorical question of course, cos context.

Yes, but our idea of eg kindness is shaped by the Christian tradition.Eg 14 th century Mother Julian of. Norwich called Jesus ‘Our Kinde Lorde.’
Likewise I’m sure ‘decency’ is a complicated concept that needs a framework surrounding it, so one can discuss what it actually means, not just anarchy and everyone for themselves. 😱

So my DD (14), who lives in a non Christian country. goes to a state school where religion is banned, and who only knows of Christianity in terms of Santa, will be an anarchist ?

Humanism does not imply anarchy; or maybe it does to someone who cannot conceive of a worlds without carrots and sticks from a deity.

I don’t know of a country that has no religious tradition, be it Islamic, Hindi, Buddhist or whatever. I’m always ready to learn, though.
I don’t see your point about Aristotle. Christianity evolves within a context. Yes, I’m sure it did take on board the teachings of Aristotle. That refers back to the earlier point of the church adapting over time.
Do you think Early Christians would have done better to have taken a stand against him?

No, it considerably predates Christianity, even in countries which are now culturally/historically Christian. And virtually identical concepts exist in non-Christian cultures, like the Buddhist concept of ‘loving kindness’. The main concepts of Hindu ethics are broadly the same as the Ten Commandments.

Well, that’s good isn’t it. So we can all be friends. 👍

PS I expect they’ve all read their Aristotle!

But you said above, quote:

"If only it could be that simple. Our society is inextricably bound up with the Christian tradition which is a sophisticated expression of our societal morality. Our idea of ‘kindness’ cannot really be separated from our societal morality ie Christian values, like it or not."

Are you now changing from that to "any religion" ?

I am working off the concept of society being global here.

Kids in Japan are taught Aristotle ?

I went to school in Scotland, and I don't remember being taught Aristotle.

Nice one , Alan! 😆

Seriously, are you changing from "it all comes from Christianity" to "any religion" and now Aristotle ?

What next ? Some Egyptian king ?

So we have gone from Catholic Guilt to Aristotle . That is a mighty big deflection.

I just can’t keep up with you, Alan!
I ‘m going to have to throw the towel in. Suggest you do the same.
Good luck with the Pope’s encyclical. 😆

I think it is a shame that a catholic feels unable to address the concerns of those who have seen how destructive it can be.

Indeed. Now US Young Earth Creationists. They can debate/discuss for weeks. They try really hard to prove their point.

One thing from this thread though is that Catholics do not seem to agree with what their version of Christianity is. Totally normal of course. But the poster who said it was nowt to do with the OT surprised me. Especially given that the Pope just issued a document that references 2 OT stories.

The Tower of Babel story is significant I think, because it appears he is referencing it as though it is a true and factual story. But it's not.

And that, to me, highlights a major problem. Because a religion can't really just dump it's religious texts. It can only "re-invent" itself so far.

So the guilt over such things as masturbation and gay sex will continue.

I think I was that poster. (Cradle Irish Catholic, very devout upbringing and education, happily longtime atheist.) I’d still hold to that. Catholicism is not that invested in the Bible in general, certainly not to the extent of most Protestant sects, but is certainly not that concerned with the OT or trying to reconcile it with the NT.

Cool.

Yet the Pope just referenced OT stories. And it is pretty difficult for any branch of Christianity to separate from the OT, because in the NT it is pretty clear that Jesus and his disciples believed in it. That is based on the few references to the Disciples of course. The Trial of Stephen is a good example, book of acts.

And there is the fact that many of the Catholic sins are based on the 10 commandments. Book of exodus.

I haven’t read the encyclical, not surprisingly, so no in-depth knowledge of its contents, but as reported in the media, it’s basically an addition to the church’s social teaching on contemporary issues like AI and immigration with Biblical stories invoked for colour/illustration as much as anything.

One of the differences between Catholicism and other stripes of Christianity is of course papal infallibility— what the Church says has always been as important as what the Bible says. Bear in mind that it was only in 1965 that Catholics began having their main religious service in their own language. That’s going to have an effect. There’s never been the same kind of stress on Bible study or Scripture being the sole source of revelation as in Protestantism, because according to the Catholic catechism, Catholic apostolic ‘tradition’ (as in, the belief that Catholic practices are as handed on directly from the apostles) is as important.

I can’t stress to you how devout my parents were/are — daily mass goers, nightly rosary, weekly confession, prayer groups, pilgrimages, novenas et etc, and how central their faith is to their lives, but I’m not sure we ever had a Bible in the house when I was growing up. Endless prayer books, holy pictures, missals, rosary beads, statues etc, but no Bible. And I don’t think that’s unusual for that generation.

ETA In relation to your last point, sure, but Catholics are getting that from the Catholic catechism/teachings, not direct from the Bible.

I’m not claiming Catholicism regards the Bible as some irrelevance by any means, it’s just not anywhere near as central as in some other branches of Christianity.

Humanists do not start with the idea that all humans are good. They know people are fallible ... human indeed, as the name implies. The slogan refers to an awareness that it is possible to be or behave in a good way without reference to a deity.
The idea of an objective standard is interesting. Does religion provide that, or does it depend which religion you choose? It is clear that it does, so you might as well cut out the deity aspect as it is pick and mix.

I am working my way through the Popes document, and para 29 has this :

"29. What we now call the “Social Doctrine of the Church” is not a spontaneous product of the modern age. Instead, it is the fruit of receiving and structuring a long tradition of ecclesial reflection on life in society, rooted in Sacred Scripture, the Church Fathers and the theological and legal developments of the Middle Ages and modern era."

TBH, there is a lot of words in this. And not a lot about AI.

It sort of reminds me of reading Marx to learn about communism. Marx used a lot of words too, but never actually got around to saying what communism is.

I think the Pope is making some good points here, but they are well hidden among a lot of other stuff. And he has a lot of eyebrow raising statements in there too. For example:

"196. The situation is further destabilized by the presence of new armed operatives, such as jihadist groups, private militias and criminal networks that mark the end of the State’s monopoly on the use of force."

I question that statement. Because when did the state have a monopoly on the use of force ? To me that is just an untrue statement.

I would say, respectfully, it's a bit of a gish gallop.

I wonder if AI was used........ nah, I won't go there :-)