Is Andy Burnham reasonable to say only a small minority of women object to men being in their toilets? YABU he's right, YANBU he's wrong *titled tweaked by MNHQ at OP's request*

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

'I don't think that's a majority view. I think it's a minority view and quite a small minority view, actually. But it is a view so you can't completely ignore it. Possibly they might be women who have experienced male violence at some point in their life. I don't know, that's one way of looking at it.'

Oh… wasn’t this you…
Imdunfer
My empathy ("sympathy" is patronising) is not limited to one group at a time.
I've made it very clear in other posts I've made that there is huge difficulty in being able to tell the autogynophiles who may well be harmful to women from the people who genuinely believe that they are women, who are unlikely to be a danger (though women may justifiably perceive both as a threat).
There are men who have lost something they had been told was a legal right. And told that by people at the very highest levels in politics and business.
I don't have any problem having empathy for their situation while also holding the view that it is entirely correct to keep them out of women's spaces.
Frankly I find any other point of view pretty small minded.

It is possible to question and try to understand all those things at the same time.

Having some empathy for the situation that people (make and female) who genuinely feel they were born in the wrong body are in doesn't exclude knowing that women should not be forced to share spaces, clubs, sports or shortlists with men.

These men have shown zero empathy to women. We don't owe them a single thing.

Why should women have empathy for men who (for whatever reason), trampled roughshod over their rights ,wants and needs? Do you want us to pat them on the head, say “there there” and give them a lollipop? What exactly do you want women to do?

I stand by it being small minded not to be able to have any empathy at all for people of both sexes who genuinely believe that they were born in the wrong body and have been told for years by politicians and leaders of business and public services that they can change sex, who now find out that they are wrong about their entire self identity.

I wouldn't, though, call that lack of empathy "a different point of view", simply a lack of an emotion that many other people will be experiencing.

Your point of view is that you are fully justified in failing to feel that emotion. We disagree on that.

Why do you think i want women to do anything? It's up to women what they do.

Personally I give Sex Matters money, you do what you like.

So again, how am I to show my empathy? I assume when women were being threatened and bullied you were on trans boards telling them to have empathy and be kind? If not, why not?

Some of them have, actually. Some have supported women only spaces publicly and been vilified by trans activists.

Empathy is not "owed", it is just felt.

I would say the majority of women I know would feel the same as him.

In my sample size of close enough friends that I know their opinion on this (about 30) I think there are maybe 10-15% who would have a problem with it.

Ages between 30-55.

I don't think you'll get a balanced view on MN as most people who agree with him stay away from here like it's the plague.

I'm blowed if I'm going to show empathy for people who didn't give a toss when they were ignoring women who wanted what we, were and, are legally entitled to have.

I don't go on trans boards and in trans discussions I would certainly stick up for any woman who was attacked.

It's not my place to tell you how to behave, why are you asking me? You either feel it or you don't.

I’m saving my empathy for all those women and girls who have suffered and been traumatised during this horrible episode of madness. And who are still suffering. If people feel lied to by stonewall et al, they can take it up with them.

I have enough for all those people too.

I could count on one hand. The vast, vast majority have treated woman appallingly. So no, I don't feel any empathy for men who have shown zero respect/consideration to women.

Ahhh, so it’s just women you want to show empathy…. But why not go tell the TRA to be empathetic and kind? Maybe women have had the empathy knocked out of them by all the nastiness and bullying from the TRA? Do you tell all bullying victims to have empathy with their bullies?

People are empathetic though. The issue we have had is that the trans debate has been stuck at the only solution to the issue is that women have to validate trans women as women (and Vv) and that it’s it. If you don’t validate you show no empathy. the law has always been clear no matter what stonewall said and women have been saying this for years and years

but Women want single sex spaces. That should be the end of it in terms of that particular debate. Now if trans people want to campaign for a 3rd space then absolutely then I’d be 100% behind that- I think everyone would be supportive and that seems to be what the ECHr guidance is suggesting. Empathy doesn’t mean we have to lose our boundaries. I will never be comfortable getting completely naked in a changing room with a biological male however they identify. No amount of empathy with override that discomfort and I don’t see why women have to be a prop to give validation to someone else.

Awwww aren’t you just the saint? Us poor mortals should bow down to your superiority shouldn’t we? I’m obviously not as enlightened as you.

A 'trans woman' is a man. Was always a man, will always be a man. There are many meaningful statistics which show men abusing women and girls in single sex spaces - as well as non single sex spaces. You see, mummywillow1, the problem, is men. And I think you do see that. You just can't admit it to yourself because that would mean the collapse of your fake belief system.

Opportunity to deep dive into the new toilets etc code and what it means if anyone is interested

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5532766-ehrc-code-of-practice-on-services-public-functions-and-associations-has-been-laid-here-is-the-code-itself?page=1

And a nice summary / highlight from Sex Matters

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/what-is-in-the-new-guidance/

Like some other posters I noted the "Possibly they might be women who have experienced male violence at some point in their life. " Someone needs to tell him that

a. that's a quite large minority of women

b. even more have experienced unwelcome behaviour that fell short of violence

c. women object for other reasons too, including religion

It's from a few years back before "let them speak", before CASS, and I hope his views are now better informed.

Because men know everything about everything especially things they know nothing about if course. 🤡

Or 10 to 15% who are brave enough to be honest.

I know quite a few people whose views on women's rights vs trans demands in private are not the ones they express in public for fear of the mob.

And I use "mob" deliberately.

The venom women receive from self righteous neo-misogynists who identify as Feminist but have entirely divorced in their mind any connection between the work Feminist and the existence, needs and challenges of people with female bodies is breathtaking and terrifying.

Women who care about female people are their new boogeyman, their way to prove to themselves they would have stood up to the Nazis (ha! they'd have been the first informers!), their opportunity to make their faith visible and well-performed to their peers.

And nothing, nothing is off bounds when it comes to demonstrating to their peers just how very very much they are not us, how aghast they are by our existence in the world and by the failure of authority to just shut us up goddamit.

On the "empathy" question - I feel empathy for trans people like I feel empathy for sexist and racist people.

I understand that they have formed a self image and set their self worth within a view of the world that is meaningful to them and that they are often genuine in their beliefs and feel genuine pain to be challanged and thwarted.

Nevertheless, they are wrong, and understanding how and why they may have come to feel that way is not a justification for molifying them or pretending they are just a "different opinion" because in living their values they damage others.

I think it is sad when a human who is probably good intentioned in their own circles and by their own values has been lead to see another set of humans with such entitlement and disdain. But that is as far is as goes.

They were never entitled to that basic access that women are entitled to. Any talk of it being an entitlement should have been stamped out at the first hurdle. The likes of Burnham coukd meet with those sensitive souls of men and buy them a pint tk cry into. Meanwhile, female spaces will remain the reserve of those born with a womb.