AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

If pointing out that if the absence of a junior employee puts the whole business at risk then maybe it’s not a secure business model is rude and goady, then so be it.

Id say the truth hurts but I doubt this is actually true and more a case of the OP being dramatic .

Clearly utterly clueless about running a small business.

i am all for 2nd chances and I think the recommendation of unpaid leave, extending probation and communication so they don’t do this again is probably reasonable response.

I have had times when 2nd chances work fantastically and people become some of the best employees after but also there was this case where it completely did not.

has this girl joining on very good and competitive day rate (probably too much - but I like to pay people well). After few weeks of joining she said she wanted to go and work from Nigeria (where she was from) as she wants to get married. I said look, you can go for 2 weeks and out of those 2 weeks - 1 week work from there and one as unpaid / holiday (not much time zone difference in my case). Then turned out it was not wedding just pre marriage party and she went for 8 days and ‘worked’ from there for a week). Then further requests started come in (I am pro working from home we had 3 days in office / 2 at home) always to have Thursday wfh as she needs to look after her 4 yo niece. Had to explain that babysitting is not allowed in office hours (I am always ok with emergencies and if it’s your own kid and cannot find help). Then started randomly asking for additional wfh days as her partner is unwell and she needs to look after him (yes grown man). I asked if it’s something very serious - no, just a cold. I said unless she has to take him to hospital she should be in office and if she wants to ‘take’ care of him - then take unpaid day.. oh and then wanted to work from home so can go to church.. (cannot remember all the reasons). Her work was not that great either, not corresponding the elevated rate.. so I let her go . And believe it or not she with a Pikachu face was enquiring why and truly could not understand the reasons…

25 is old enough to know better, I’d say no and assume they’ll hand their notice in. If they were 18 I’d give some leeway on maturity and make them take the month unpaid and make it very clear it was a silly decision to book it without having approval first.

I’ve worked night shift and functioned as a human being. Not a human being doing family lunch and coffee catch ups like I didn’t work, and when I went to a 2pm party it was like starting drinking at 3am and went badly for me. You could do it for normal life but you don’t drink at afternoon things or dinner and then go to work and you need sleep, slightly more sleep as most people sleep less well on shift work even if it doesn’t feel like it - I felt like I slept well but was still more tired.

Few companies with 15 people can afford to run with spare capacity. With am unexpected, unplanned absence others have to take up the workload (in this case the OP has said it will be her and a temp). And then you get people stretched and inexperienced, or out of practice, in the role and then, if you are unlucky ...

• For want of a nail the shoe was lost;
• For want of a shoe the horse was lost;
• For want of a horse the rider was lost;
• For want of a rider the battle was lost;
• For want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
• And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Has anyone queried the tax implications of working from another country? I would get legal advice and sack them.

Do you have a problem with alcohol? You seem obsessed with that and partying.

Personally, I can donwithout the stuff so perhaps it's easier for me to function on a daily basis.

Which part am I clueless about? I doubt many small businesses would admit to a junior having that much impact on the business. It’s a silly statement

Was that a constructive comment?
It was OP who made claims that their business could be at risk , not me.

I am not saying it wouldn’t be inconvenient, but OPs comments are making this person sound indispensable - which they have later said no one is. Which is it?

If your business would fail if one person- especially a junior employee- isn’t there, you need to reassess your business model. No one should be that vital or you are asking for trouble. What if this employee was off sick for a month?

Op seems to have used this scenario to update their policies but I’d also look at work flow/training to make sure that IF someone was ever off for a long period, others could help out for a time and there wouldn’t be a panic.

Oh for goodness sake stop picking hairs, she never said there would be a panic and she explained how the work would be covered. It's a damned nuisance to a small company to have someone suddenly decide to take time off. Would you have let this employee do what she wanted? When you wrote "help out for a time" do you even realise that you mean "make everyone else pick up more work"? Have you ever managed a company with 15 people covering every role (and made a profit long term?).

And if a client prefers to have an in person meeting?

yes virtual meetings are very deoable and in a lot of cases are more efficient but sometimes in person is better/ preferred. Also dialling in only generally works well if a significant number of attendees are dialling in. If everyone else is in the room together and 1 dials in, it generally doesn’t work well (or at least is a lot harder work to make it work)

You are deliberately misrepresenting my posts. This person is not indispensable and their absence does NOT put the business at risk. I never said that.

You are being obtuse and determined to play out your narrative - you are weirdly invested in derailing this thread.

I will not be responding to any more of your nonsense posts. Feel free to post but for goodness sake get your facts straight before posting.

@Melissazzz The pay saved is not equal to the cost of getting the work done by others. The op doing it has a cost and a temp has a cost.

Most companies have rules about working from home. It must be agreed. If it doesn’t suit the business model, it’s not agreed. If an employee lies about being available for work, when they are not, and it contravenes company policy regarding wfh, there should be a disciplinary interview.

Well done, OP. A constructive and useful outcome, I think, and hopefully they'll come back with their head on properly and ready to be a better employee!
I think you're pretty generous, FWIW, and many employers would have just shown this person the door. I do hope they don't abuse your decent behaviour towards them.
Best of luck. I think you sound like a great boss/company owner.

How does anyone think that it was a reasonable thing for the junior probationer to do? Had the holiday been booked before they got the job, it would absolutely not have been unreasonable for them to ask if there was something that could be done to facilitate it, wfh ft or pt, unpaid leave etc.

However, they booked it after starting a new role, being distinctly in a probationary period, and without asking for written approval first. The majority of jobs require some kind of authorisation to take any time off, whether booked on a schedule, or through a line manager. You get this in writing (to cover your own back) before making any booking. The only exception would be any role in which your contract states you can self authorise leave. Which I would think is uncommon for anyone junior.

The second thing is that they are on probation. The time in a new role that you should be impressing your new bosses, showing them what you can do, ensuring you are a good fit for the role (as well as ensuring its the right role for you). How can you do that when you take a month away? A 100% wfh role would be different, but one that involves any type of in person presence means you should want to be there. Learn as much as you can, become good at the job. Pass your probation, and then book the holiday. I'm not saying you shouldn't take any time off in a probation period, but not a month in one go.

Any exceptions would need to be discussed. I can't see OP being unreasonable if they were asked for the time off due to an unwell family member overseas, or something similar. The fact that they considered the request, for even a minute, shows they had some consideration. But this was a holiday.

I think the offer is completely reasonable, and more than would be needed. A chance to take the holiday, and restart the probationary period. I hope they realise this is the best they could have realistically hoped for, enjoy their holiday, and return with renewed vigour and commitment to the role.

My advice is get rid of this person while they are still in the probation period.

They should have mentioned this in the interview, so obviously took the job in bad faith.

Let this go, and things will only get worse.

I wish you huge success @estrogone You sound like a sensible and humane employer. Well done!!

They’re being kept on. Very generous of OP under the circs.

You said :
”This person took the piss. I have 14 others to look out for - so whilst I am all for flexibility and work life balance there is an obvious bigger picture. I have the well-being of 15 families to consider. I take that responsibility bloody seriously.”

You are implying that this person being away effects 14 other people.

I am not invested in derailing this thread. I gave my opinion, which you took umbrage too, then you argued with me. As I have said: why ask for opinions if you aren’t willing to listen to other views?

Don’t respond then. But don’t say something then act like you haven’t.

What are you talking about? That poster isn’t talking about drinking. They are comparing the idea of spending all day awake, and then working overnight to going to being drunk/hungover. It isn’t possible and will not result in good quality work if you do 4 weeks of it.

They said it’s like staying up all night and drinking, then trying to go to work the next day. You wouldn’t do that. This person wants to stay up all day with family days out and then work overnight - for 4 weeks. It will be like having a drunk employee, exhausted, unable to concentrate or function properly and eventually very unwell.

She said she used to work nights and when she did work nights and tried to attend a party at 2pm, it was horrible - similar to being very drunk/hungover because your brain is struggling. That’s how this person will be every night at work, after spending the days out with family.