AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

presumably during probation period you can end the contract quickly for any reason? tbh i think i'd do that.

Give them unpaid leave but be super-nice and polite about it. The niceness will reinfornce the firmness, not the other way round. If you start with a pissed off tone then you inevitably get into negotiation and "well I suppose you could do XYZ" and nobody's happy, nobody wins and nobody has any clarity. If you're just matter of fact and cheerful they can't budge.

"WFH won't work for us, but of course you're more than welcome to take those 5 days of annual leave you've accrued and then take the rest as unpaid. We'll add the time away onto your probation period afterwards. Hope you have a great time."

If pressed, you're probably not insured for them to work on your equipment overseas etc.

It's possible that this job is not as central to their world as it is to yours, and that's fine both ways. That's just how it goes.

That’s being a massive pushover and sends the message that this dishonesty and sneakiness is acceptable, no reason why this person wouldn’t do it again.

i would be thinking impact on other staff - is this particular junior very well liked and everyone will be upset by a sacking, or will they resent the cheeky fuckery and/or think a precedent has been set.

You could always start the conversation wth "If you want to sray with the company"

This is not an occasion to be super nice and I am someone who believes in being cordial and friendly whenever you can.

If OP keeps with her decision to retain this member of staff, it needs to be made very clear to them that their behaviour was unacceptable and if they ever books leave without approval again, then they can choose holiday or keep their job.

The worry here is that this is not a one off but an ongoing pattern of behaviour. OP needs to make future expectations crystal clear and documented.

Unless they are otherwise a whizz at the role, I would be tempted to just let them go.

"Hire for attitude" is a well known maxim for good reason. With the reduction of the no cause firing going down to 6 months, it's even more important to clean out new hires at the first sign of unsuitability.

Why do you need to hard arse it? Is it because you would have been told no if you had asked when you were 25?

The junior has booked a trip and has offered suggestions on how to maintain their role whilst away as well as using annual leave.

In my role, we are given our years leave allocation upfront, if we were to leave the job before the leave year is up this would be factored into our final pay so I don't believe that should be a barrier here.

So other than spite, what reason do you have to decline the request?

If the junior fails to maintain the service the have indicated they would whilst away, take disciplinary action then. At least give the youngster a chance first.

I think a lot of people are being very harsh.
The employee didn’t say they were going away for a months holiday. They are going to see family and offered to work nights to suit the business.

People are entitled to a life outside of their work. Now days, companies aren’t willing to invest in good people anymore, as demonstrated by the fact OP would rather sack them and start again. Employees don’t feel loyal anymore because they are seen as disposable .

Let’s be honest: if the company was failing you’d leave it to the last minute to tell people so you could keep making money . Bugger people needing the chance to find new jobs to pay the bills.

Did they make a silly mistake? Yes. But they are young. A better lesson would be to make it unpaid and tell them how this isn’t acceptable in the future.

I’ve only read the OP’s posts but I think she’s made a mistake in assuming the flights are non-refundable. If they aren’t, then the employee may have just booked them temporarily.

Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if the employee has been pressured into this by family and her partner. It can be difficult when you live far from family. My in-law’s family from India insisted I spend a month with them, in their country, before marriage and so I was also put in the horrible position of having to work nights and take a month off. I may well be reading too much into it but maybe there’s something like that happening which would mean it’s not actually a reflection of her attitude towards work.

We had a similar situation where this was approved and now its an absolute free for all and people just seem to work where they like when they like.

I think your approach is fair although I'd document it with HR for my own sake. FIngers crossed they don't go off sick now instead.

Well that's a hard no, and bin them off it they still go as they are unable to complete their probation period. It doesn't bode well for the future with this employee tbh.

Leave should always be agreed before booking so its on them really if you decline. I find it rather cheeky to pull this having only just started and theres no consideration for other employees. It would be a no for me to authorise this due to the length of leave and business needs. So for them to take the leave they would have to resign.

This.
my bigger concern is if they think this is acceptable now what will they be like medium to long term. Entitled and difficult to manage, and get rid of if you set a precedent now.

I think the trip was probably booked before they joined the company and their vague talk of extended leave was probably nervousness on their part as to the implications as a new member of staff.

I would allow them to go albeit unpaid this is not remote working this is unpaid leave and add the month to the probation period.

This is far less hassle then them handing their notice and you starting the recruitment process all over again.

Inform all staff this leave was booked before he joined and the usual booking holiday procedures continue to apply.

If you don’t sack her you absolutely WILL regret it.

That’s more than fair on your part.

I’d also send them a copy of their contract/work policies so they can see clearly what rules they are breaking.

They're not that young, they're 25!

Do it. This is absolutely grounds to fail a probation period. Cut your losses and move on.

They would have likely started their career during Covid - so had limited actual work experience to see what is done/not.
Your brain also isn’t formed until 25

It's not a realistic option to work nights for 3-4 weeks whilst being away and seeing family and friends, and being productive and maintaining standards. And that's true for any employee let alone one new to the job. You also have a duty of care to an employee and them working like that without adequate rest isn't good. As well as the issues re IT equipment overseas. I also think there's OP is being very fair, they have thought about it and haven't imediately jumped to sacking them.

At 16 I knew I had to do everything according company policy in my Saturday job. Being under 25 is not an excuse to be a pillock at work.

This person needs a reminder who the manager is. They do not call the shots because it suits them. This is definitely a case of they feel comfortable enough to ask forgiveness instead of having had permission beforehand.

And then what would people without children/not needing childcare say about this special treatment? And would those people be expected to just cover for their colleague and bollocks to any hopes of a summer holiday for themselves?

deleted because I thought I was posting on a batshit economy thread - agree in the context of this thread tge straw man and entire scenario is equally daft.

offered to work nights to suit the business.

But it doesn't suit the business, quite apart from any legal issues. The person won't be available to the client in their normal working hours, and their probation can't be overseen as it would if they were in the office.

They would have likely started their career during Covid - so had limited actual work experience to see what is done/not.

Lockdowns - in the UK at least - ended in spring 2021. This person has had five whole years since then to learn what is done or not done in a work environment.

It's about bloody time people stopped using Covid as an excuse for everything.

They can’t fulfill the terms of their contract so they need to hand in their notice with immediate effect or face being sacked and having that on their employment record.