AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

What a silly post. You seem intent on riling what is, a perfectly calm and measured thread.

Please do jog on.

Spite has nothing to do with it. Telling me that they have booked a month off with zero formal consultation in advance is piss poor. It screams I couldn't give a toss about my job.

You are aware small businesses, in fact most businesses hire people to do actual work. This person is not window dressing- they have full days of meetings, reporting, correspondence which are client facing in this time zone. What should we do in their absence? Just forget they exist? If we could do that their role would be redundant. Then where would they be?

By your own admission, they mentioned it in passing and you didn't nip it in the bud immediately and you dont have a wfh policy they could refer to before making plans.

You sound bitter because of your own lack of foresight here.

Without knowing the ins and outs of this specific role, covid taught us all that nobody needs to be in an office to do a job well. Meetings can take place online. Emails can be composed and scheduled to be sent at appropriate times of day.

Perhaps you would be better off hiring a robot or using AI.

I am not at all bitter.

I did not nip it in the bud because there was nothing to nip, it was a 1 minute - thinking of doing x - there was no question. I didnt give it a second thought as flights are horribly expensive and disrupted right now.

You completely glossed over my explanation why it would not be feasible to work at times other than the standard day. They are reasonable expectations of a well paid position. This person earns $92k a year - which whilst junior is not inconsequential.

I’m surprised some people are defending the employee. In no circumstance is it reasonable to book a holiday without explicit written approval from your line manager that you have permission to take that time as annual leave. It is also never going to be acceptable to take a month off in your probation period, when you’re meant to be there proving your worth. Coming up with some plan to work through the night in another time zone is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the workplace.

Clearly I’ve hit a nerve 😂

I didn't gloss over anything. I gave 2 examples of technology allowing people to connect for work purposes across time zones. I do it for my job on a daily basis and haven't set foot in our offices this year. It's you that is unwilling to accept that this is achievable.

When this junior said they were thinking of doing x was the time to nip it in the bud. You pay them a handsome wage, so no reason to think this wouldn't be affordable for them.

You didn't say explicitly that they could not consider a trip like that because of probation/leave/time zone challenges etc.

I think some self reflection could help you here. You didn't have a policy on working overseas. You didn't say no when it was first mooted. You underestimated the affordability of the trip. You assume the proposed schedule is not achievable. You refuse to accept that the technology we use everyday can facilitate this.

The workplace has changed and I'm all for the up and coming generations smashing the status quo

The upcoming generations don’t need to sleep so can work through the night AND have a holiday?? They must be superhuman!

The technology is wonderful but I don’t believe it’s changed the basic human need for sleep. I have had team members work from abroad in slightly shifted time zones, I have worked on projects in different time zones, I have worked shifts in anti social hours both in person and remotely.what I have not done is do this simultaneously with a holiday, it’s not feasible.

You’re confused. Thats the new AI and robots that can work and party on holiday 24/7. People are still human and need sleep.

Not passing the probationary period then! Cheeky sod.

Available for work 9pm to 5am as OP stated. Sleep 5am to midday or even 1pm. Then have 8 or 9 whole hours to spend as they wish whist abroad, not too dissimilar to what they do at home albeit shifted to another timezone. Perfectly achievable

Some people do work night shifts and function as human beings outside the workplace you know

I'm surprised that you're not just getting rid of them. You can train someone up in your internal process, regulations, IT systems etc but this is about their core values and work ethic, and that's a lot harder to instill. Are they really such a star that it's worth damaging the morale of your existing staff? You may think the details of the arrangement are private, but your probationer may well be talking openly about it all.

Surely the first few months in a new job is when a new employee is at pains to show how competent, motivated and enthusiastic they are? If this is how they are now, what will they be like once they've passed probation?

Who the hell takes a month long holiday on probation? 😆
Just let them go.
Why would you bother training a temp this early in? When this employee returns from their holiday this will always leave a bit of a sour taste in your mouth, especially the deceitful "end kf the day" Friday email that was sent just before you went on a week's leave.
And it will piss off your other employees who may start wondering why they cant just drop everything and jet off for a month too.
Nobody is irreplaceable - its not like your employee is slme kind of specialist surgeon

i presume there is an annual leave request process that’s been explained to them?

This is a ridiculous request. Travelling and working overseas presents risks around security of devices and data. They may not have a secure or work appropriate working area. Working alternate hours just does not suit a business and is not efficient. It’s a completely unreasonable and unprofessional request!

I’m impressed that as the CEO and owner of a new start up with 15 employees you have the time to post on mumsnet!

Indeed. And there's the added fun of considering the cyber risks wherever this employee is going eg are they working in an Internet café? Some countries prohibited encrypted devices etc. What if the device broke whilst they were abroad? There are also potential tax implications depending on how long this person has spent in that country prior to starting work for OP.

So yes OP didnt have a policy but it doesn't mean that she has to allow this for an employee who has not even passed probation and didn't give much notice. There are lots of considerations and a small business doesn't have the time or energy to address them all. Of course some companies are set up for this, great for them. But not all are. And OP is not being unreasonable at all!

I was right about the implicit approval! You're now the bad guy and they'll probably try emotional manipulation next to get their own way.

Flights can often be changed for a fee.

Now that is THE oddest post of all. I am the CEO of a small business I do employ 15 people - hardly Mark Zuckerberg. Do you think I work 24x7? Or, are you implying I am making this up? Or, both?

Why is that @Bellabun ? It's really not that difficult or time consuming to type out a message. Have you got anything constructive to add that might actually help OP?

No you haven't, you're just being rude and goady.

Why?

The end result is.
WFH policy has been updated.
Employment contract has been updated.
Leave policy was explicit but now includes a section specific to leave during probation.

The employee has been given a stern letter of expectation and acknowledges that they have messed up and that they understand why this has landed so poorly. They will be allowed to use their accrued leave of 5 days and the rest will be taken as unpaid, with the clock restarting on their probation when they return.

This key person dependency is going to be addressed with a part time hire, to ensure better cover and risk management if the person doesn't cut the mustard during probation.

Thank you to everybody who has commented constructively - it really did help me land on a workable solution for the business and for the employee. Our other employees will be informed that this is an absolute exception.

For those that insist it's everybody's right to have 100% flexibility in every job, I would suggest you walk a mile in an employer's shoes. We don't have unlimited budgets to cover every scenario. More importantly though, there is an absolute case that working nights on holiday would not work out. Service levels would drop. There are limits on what can be accommodated, to suggest otherwise is at best naive at worst just plain risky.

Over and out now. Off to enjoy what's left of my leave.