AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

This

This. If you think they’ll pull this stunt again and aren’t doing well enough in probation then you can always fail their probation. Your HR department should have strict guidelines around leave and working abroad during probation. I mean they haven’t racked up the hours for 4 weeks holiday so they’d only get what 1 week’s paid leave and the rest would be unpaid. Or are they stupid enough to think the whole leave will be paid and that rules (wfh whilst abroad) don’t apply to them so they can do what they like? I’d also either have a word or get HR/manager to point out that you just don’t do this in work, there are protocols to follow. Youth shouldn’t be an excuse either.

My post is absolutely and sadly real. I thought I would get a pasting for being a bitch, glad most do not think IABU.

It sounds like at interview or at the start of their contract, this junior employee mentioned some travel / holidays in passing, but never actually put in a formal request or chased it up with management until now.

Sounds very unreasonable to me. When I joined my current company, I had some overlap with running projects and I did mention it when appointed, as we were discussing starting date. However, it was my responsibility to formally enquire about how it would work once I joined the company in person. I didn’t just assume they would accommodate me, just because nobody had opposed my plans at first. I had to follow the procedures and until it got officially approved, I was aware I might need to cancel those other projects if my main employer didn’t sign off on it.

If this person is behaving like this during their probation, they will be a fucking nightmare if you take them on permanently! This is simply not acceptable behaviour. If you take a job, you should know that you have to get leave approved by your line manager BEFORE you book it. Also, many businesses wouldn't let you take four weeks in one go, particularly when you've only accrued 5 days' leave so far AND you're still on probation. This person is a cheeky fucker and you'd be mad to just go 'Okay, see ya in 4 weeks. Sure you can 'work' from Australia or wherever it is, I'm sure you'll be a fabulous employee during that month that you can't possibly do your job'.

I would either fire them for breaking the terms of their contract/probation or, if you really don't want to do that, say they can take unpaid leave and their probation will be extended by a month when they get back. But if you just agree to this you're rewarding this person's behaviour and creating a monster to manage in future.

Unpaid leave is the only option if you want to keep them. They will not have accrued enough paid leave, and you know that if you pay them, they will not be able to deliver when they are sunning themselves in Australia and kidding on that they are working all night.

If you're feeling particularly generous (and I wouldn't be) you could say 1 week paid holiday and 3 weeks unpaid.

Obviously an immature 25 year old. Quite staggering how entitled they are.

Your mistake was to ask them to demonstrate how they could maintain service levels. Your response should have been a straight ‘no’.

Their age doesn't matter
The cost doesn't matter
Their probation doesn't matter
Their role doesn't matter

What actually does matter is this over entitled piss taker decided to book and pay for it, without checking first.

That's completely on them if they lose thousands.

You don't need to be encouraging their 'don't give a shit' behaviour towards the company.

We are in Australia they are going to their country of origin (not the UK).

Nope.

Trying to combine work and holiday is a recipe for disaster or piss-taking, especially with the time difference. This is very different to, say, going to France for 2 weeks, working mornings and having the afternoons as annual leave. The piece meal nature of their plan means that either they'll be skiving, exhausted (Def no to overnight working), or not available when needed.

Is there a work abroad policy? Is it permitted? We are forbidden from working abroad due to IT security etc.

Absolute piss take to book a holiday without checking annual leave approval first, or getting permission to work abroad.

If they looking promising, I'd be talking about the requirements of my final point, refusing permission to work abroad, making them take at least 2 weeks of it as annual leave and the remainder as unpaid leave. And make it very clear - in writing - that this was a special consideration this time round despite their failure to comply with annual leave policy, and in future it would not be accommodated again and they will need to comply with policies.

As with every relationship - once they show you who they are believe them.

There are quite a lot of potential issues. Are employees allowed to work overseas? In past jobs I haven’t been as it can create tax issues for the company, as well as cyber security and people issues (setting precedents, blurred lines when someone wants to work when on holiday). If they’re client facing and with such a huge time difference, how will they be contacted, how will they attend meetings.

I am also surprised they booked it without proper approval and during their probation.

They should take it as proper annual leave and then unpaid if they haven’t accrued enough. Or just terminate employment, sounds like they could cause more problems further down the line

But the thing is, in most jobs, it’s exceptional circumstances to grant unpaid leave and it’s at the discretion of the manager/HR. Otherwise lots of people would take unpaid leave. The employee probably knows they’re being a CF but decided to chance their arm.

If you’re feeling kindly towards them then tell them they’ll have to take unpaid leave. Their choice.

I’d just get rid.

I agree. This person got an incredible opportunity and I feel like it is being pissed away. Fuck me, I am cheesed off.

We are a small business at a critical time. This is not for exceptional circumstances (parents ill, bereavement), just a holiday. I tried to phrase my op neutrally so as to get unbiased opinions, but seeing the responses...

Gah!!!

Rereading this, I would say this is leave/wfh abroad request has not been granted, please cancel the holiday or take what’s been accrued so far as holiday.

Also imagine the outcry in your company with colleagues if they find this has been approved. A whole can of worms could be opened with others wanting similar treatment.

From bitter experience..,.

I approved extended leave for one employee, three weeks at a time of year only two were allowed so he could go to South Africa. He then decided he wouldn't be back for another week as he wanted to tag on a week visiting his girlfriend's parents in Scotland. He didn't actually apply for this, he just let slip that he wouldn't need to worry about jet lag as he would have that week to recover!

When told no, he had a massive screaming tantrum and said that the company should not have its long established Christmas shutdown that year and we could all take that week off.

Err no.

Nip it in the bud, cheeky fuckers are as cheeky fuckers do and it will only get worse.

In that case definitely just let them go. There must be plenty of other junior staff who’d want this opportunity?

“They are 25 and would lose thousands” Ain’t life a bitch?

Neither of which is anything you can control. At 25 I would expect someone to have some understanding of how working practices pan out. Presumably they have either been in work before or have been studying , either way they will have met up with situations when they need to concede that the needs of the work or studying environment take precedence over personal wishes whether this be working hours, attendance, deadlines etc.

The money situation is also not your concern, they have presumably booked travel arrangements and sorted out accomodation, if they have been stupid enough to do this before checking that the leave and salary arrangements were ok with the employer then that is down to them.

Quite possibly one of the most entitled posts I've read.
You don't book a month off in the adult world without permission.
Not a chance would i be agreeing to this.

For me: Cancel trip or resign.

Even unpaid leave is a massive favour I’d only consider IF it had been discussed well in advance. I wouldn’t be offering any solutions to this, and the “do first, ask later” attitude to force the issue is not one I’d welcome.

If you relent, this would (IMO) be the first of many special requests, better desk, ergonomic chair, WFH, compressed hours, leave of absence, you name it.

Nope. I would let them go - from the job, and sayonara.

A bit of a drip feed, but they announced this plan by email only after I had left the office on Friday to take a week's leave myself. Presumably thought I would not see the email before I clocked off. Feels very premeditated - although I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt.