AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

Can you try and get cover for the month and then tell the employee to take it unpaid, extend their probation by the month. They won’t get any work done, you’ll regret allowing them to attempt to work with such a difference in the time zones.

I think I’d take this type of approach, OP. Given then unpaid leave, but be really clear it’s a one off
You’ve noted they’ve only been in Australia for 7 months - is your job the first they’ve had outside their home country?
It sounds as if they’re trying to pull a fast one, but they maybe totally naive about Western work places.
As you’ve said it’s a small company, I’m guessing you might not have anyone else from their home country - but if you do, would they be able to explain (weird) Australian work habits ?
Who knows this young person might turn out to be awesome when they understand the work place …

They were testing how weak you are when they first mentioned it to you. It should have been put to bed there and then.

Now days, companies aren’t willing to invest in good people anymore, as demonstrated by the fact OP would rather sack them and start again.

I think OP's inclination to get rid of them and hire someone else was a desire to invest in good people not poor ones.

I agree. This person thinks the rules don't apply to them and they've sufficiently got their feet under the table to not be replaced.

My work had laughed and asked you to find the door out and goodbuy! Have a nice life in another setting.

I think the ultimate question is do you want this person working for your company longer term? I would not be impressed and I’d be having a serious conversation with them. Their attitude in that conversation would decide whether I terminated their contract, or let them have some unpaid leave to go. I would not be letting them “work” on holiday at all.

Maybe they thought if they get x amount of holidays a year they could just take them straight away. Have to say I have worked for organisations that would allow you to do that. If someone left and they’d taken too much holiday that year their last pay cheque would just be calculated accordingly.

i do think there is something about this generation which thinks it’s acceptable. My Dd is the same age and pulled a very similar stunt in her first job. Slight difference though is that she asked her boss before booking anything (he said yes and she worked while on a different continent for about 3 weeks). I cringed for her and said she should never have asked. She said I was old fashioned and her boss was cool about it and told her to have a good time. Then she got her probation extended and was told one of the reasons was due to her disappearance for a month and not showing commitment to the job. She was genuinely stunned. She has grown up since then and knuckled down.

Ds22 has almost finished his probation period with his first job and would definitely not behave that way. He has already had a £500 bonus for his work. I think his job would actually allow him to take it unpaid (he wouldn't be allowed to work from abroad) as he does have specialised skills but there would probably be something put on his record. I know when he got the job he had to tell them any holidays etc already booked.

whats the point of training someone else for a months work? just gt rid of the emplyee they;ll take the p even mor if you let them

Yep too cheeky to assume they can work remotely in a different time zone to the client they are facing for a month.

I think a kind but frank discussion is needed about how any changes in working will be fairly considered but that business needs are also considered. The lack of notice that was given (the 'heads up' is not the same), booking a holiday without prior agreement, the deciding on other ways of working without discussion with manager and the security policy around taking IT devices abroad are all factors that would need much more time and planning. That they have not accrued enough paud holiday, but that you will kindly offer them unpaid leave and a months extension of their probation.

How have they responded?

She said I was old fashioned and her boss was cool about it and told her to have a good time. Then she got her probation extended and was told one of the reasons was due to her disappearance for a month and not showing commitment to the job. She was genuinely stunned. She has grown up since then and knuckled down.

I work with undergraduates, and some try this sort of thing - asking "Can I do the module remotely as my parents have booked a holiday for that month? (when it's not an online module) or "there's a wedding in Hong Kong I need to go to" etc etc etc

My point of view is that they're adults, and I can't actually stop them from doing what they think they want to or need to.But that, as adults, they have to live with the consequences of their choices.

It;s probably been already mentioned, but Australian working visas are quite hard to come by. Vanishing after a tiny period of actual work might be in breach of a visa rule also.

Update: I have professionally and respectfully let this person know that this won't fly (wfh from their home country). I have been clear on the reasons why and also added in my overall concerns (wtaf face ) in my written correspondence. They have responded to day that they assumed a passing comment was implicit approval. I am bemused to say the least but still considering unpaid leave (definitely not going to approve their mad ass wfh proposal).

Lesson learned. Do not look for logic where none exists.

Ho hum. Another day of small business jiggery pokery. It is never dull.

@estrogone for future reference, as part of our offer we ask people to confirm if they have any holidays booked, as we will honour them (assuming they are under 3 weeks). If someone doesn't state that they have, then they need to apply for leave like everyone else.

Sounds like they are from the “it’s better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission” camp.

I am going to say they can go on unpaid leave - with their probation period to restart from when they return for another 6 month

did you offer unpaid leave or not?

if not surely chatting about the issue with them now would have been the appropriate time to do that!

Lol. This is mostly definitely a holiday. I have deliberately not mentioned how good we are to our staff (certified B Corp) so as to keep the responses neutral.

This person took the piss. I have 14 others to look out for - so whilst I am all for flexibility and work life balance there is an obvious bigger picture. I have the well-being of 15 families to consider. I take that responsibility bloody seriously.

I respect that he told you it was a holiday when he could have easily lied

why didn’t you offer unpaid leave when you declined wfh as you said you were planning to?

Yes we are considering this and I will discuss with this person in due course.

Holiday and wfh need explicit approval especially when you are training.

Nice try from the 25 yo.

I think you’re being very sensible - no way they could have been familyvisitor by day and working by night! Unrealistic. No work would have got done - or not much

I have let them know that we are considering unpaid leave (given they TOLD me at 5pm on Friday, and its not long COB Monday - perhaps I can be forgiven for considering this carefully ??)

I'd make my decision based on the attitude the person shows now, OP. The assumption of authorisation from making a passing comment would probably be the limit for me. This person in clueless and a liability.

I honestly wouldn’t want them working for me. They don’t seem to get what they have done wrong…

And you would seriously advertise, interviews candidates, recruit and bring them on board and train them - for a 4 week job whilst they are on unpaid leave??