AIBU to think a toddler should be allowed to sit while healthy adults stand?

[Thegoldenoriole]

Tldr: should toddlers stand while healthy adults sit on trains?

On the tube today, I boarded holding our 2yo DD by the hand, DH had pushchair and baby in the sling. It’s busy (South Kensington museums on a Sunday afternoon) so we didn’t get a seat. No drama, I manoeuvred DD down the carriage towards a pole and tell her to hold on to that and my hand and we travel one stop reasonably well wedged in. DH is half way down the carriage with a lot of people between us.

At the next stop, the seat in front of us opened up so I helped DD to climb up. NB: it was one of the fold up seats designated for a wheelchair user if someone needs it. However, no wheelchair present and the other two fold up seats had healthy young adults sitting in them.
DD had just got settled when a man says, very loudly, “would you like that seat?” looking behind him but pointing at my 2yo. I say hang on, she’s sitting there, he says something like “she can stand up, it’s for disabled people” I said “well she can stand but she might fall over” and he got huffy and said his leg hurt. Totally coincidentally, I’ve currently got a mildly sprained knee so just blurted out “well I’ve got a sore leg too!” and he said “well why don’t you sit down then?” so I did and put DD on my lap and he stormed down the carriage saying he was just trying to offer a seat to a lady.
I would absolutely have moved DD if a wheelchair user had boarded, requiring the full length of the fold up seated area. But AIBU to think that a healthy adult should be asked to move from a seat before a young child?
Just to preempt the question “why not keep DD in the push chair?” we had taken her out to help us get down the steps and walked straight onto the train. I have no real problem with her standing, it was more that it felt very much as though he was deliberately picking on the toddler sitting down, especially given he did not ask either of the other adults on fold up seats to move. But he was so self-righteous I’ve been left wondering whether this is some etiquette I’ve never absorbed, despite living in London for 10 years before having DD!

No, I don’t 🤦‍♀️😅 I didn’t assume anyone could stand. I just objected when the man tried to requisition the toddler’s seat without checking if the adults sitting in the other priority seats needed them. He assumed toddler was more able to stand than they were, without any evidence to support that.

The way I see it your toddler had 3 more options. You hold her, you stand with her and hold hands, you put her in the buggy. That's 3 more options than any adult in the carriage. Parent your child, enforce something and stop making excuses. I'm a parent, I've been there, I know what's it's like and I would never do what you did, be a parent and take responsibility for YOUR child

My kids at 2 wouldn't have been sat in their own seat in a crowded train, they would fave been on my knee or in the pram if I had it with me that day. That's called respect.

As in, if someone had asked me in a normal tone if their disabled friend could sit where toddler was? I’d have moved her and just been a bit confused why they hadn’t asked the other adults sitting down. It was the fact he acted like the seat was empty and freely offered it out without checking if toddler could stand, while two other healthy-looking adults sat scrolling their phones, that annoyed me. He acted as though she were a bag of shopping. Frankly, I’d have been more polite asking someone to move their bag.

‘healthy young adults sitting in them’
thats an assumption because they’re young you think they’re healthy

Someone asking about the seat and pointing out they’re for disabled people told you his leg hurt and your response what to be petty and say your legs also sore. You assumed he didn’t need it and he was just being huffy.

‘expected to give up the seat they are sitting in when a healthy adult is sitting right next to them.’
again another assumption

‘two young adults with no obvious disability’
another assumption

Thats just a few that read like your assuming things. A young healthy looking person might actually be struggling and in more pain than an 80 year old lady sat on a seat. You mention if a wheelchair comes you’d move but not everyone who needs a priority seat has a wheelchair

If you accepted the norm that small children do not occupy a seat by themselves, you wouldn't have been confused. You would have been embarrassed, apologised and moved your child. I doubt that anyone would give a toddler priority over an adult when asking for a seat, for whatever reason.

I wouldn't say a fold down chair for someone with a disability is suitable for a healthy adult or a toddler. I used to just put my kids on my lap or they stayed in the pushchair when they were that small. If no seats on the train the pushchair it is.

I’d have moved her and just been a bit confused why they hadn’t asked the other adults sitting down
So you’re still convinced that your toddler sitting in a chair because she wanted to, should be allowed to do so at the expense of all the adults sitting round her?
You’d be confused if she’d be asked to vacate her seat rather than the other passengers who’ve actually paid for a ticket (and don’t have the option of sitting in a buggy like she did)?
You’re never going to get it.

I would always give a toddler priority over a healthy adult for a seat a seat in any circumstance.
If the adult had an obvious disability, was old or said they couldn’t stand then that is different.
The OP doesn’t need to be embarrassed in any way.
We are not in the 1950s ( when I was a young child). We now know that children are vulnerable on public transport.

I too would be happy to give my seat to a toddler to keep them safe if their parent wasn't doing so but I put my own child on my lap, which both keeps them safe and shows courtesy to my fellow grown-ups.

Children under 5 are carried free but aren’t meant to occupy a seat, fine to have them on you lap but they shouldn’t occupy alone - you might say what is the difference but it’s the rules

You can do what you want but my personal experience on the tube is that most people stand both for the child and the parent accompanying the child because they feel that is the kind thing to do.
I always found any child over 1 was quite uncomfortable on my lap and not particularly safe for the child.

I didn't know that. Useful info. Perhaps OP will shift her position.

Where is this ruling?

On the TfL website, it states that on busses and trams, children under 11 travel free.

It also clearly states that 'London’s public transport has priority seating for passengers with young children, pregnant women and people with disabilities.'

Surely, in that case, a two year old can most definitely take a seat...

Wrong information:
Children under 5 are carried free and may use a seat if available.

If you were sat there with kid on lap he would not have asked you

'Passengers with young children' means that the parent is given priority for the seat so that they can keep the children safe on their lap, not that the child sits on the seat. Interesting question though about the source of the five-years old rule.

Asking about the existence of this norm is pretty much why I posted the thread in the first place. All else being equal, a toddler is self-evidently less able to stand than an adult. In over ten years of tube-riding, it has never occurred to me to be annoyed that a little child was sitting while I had to stand. Particularly not if the parent isn’t taking up a second seat. However, I do now understand that lots of people are annoyed by this, and do think toddlers are equally or more capable of standing than adults. That’s good to know.

The 'passengers with young children' is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Of course a young child could be sat in the seat and a parent stood next to it

It doesn’t say that. That is your interpretation based on your ideas.
Children under 5 are entitled to a seat.

No - toddlers are more capable of sitting on your lap

Presumably entitled to a seat for safety reasons, which is fine if tge tube isn't crowded. If it is, the child should be on their parents lap ie balancing rules with courtesy.

This toddler was sitting sensibly on the seat while I stood directly in front of her. When I put her on my lap, she started wriggling around and trying to escape. I held on to her, but it was safer for her and less annoying for everyone else when she was sat by herself. The only difference in space was I was no longer taking up a square foot of floor that no one else required.

Not so safe so more courteous for me to stand.

If it’s London then Google disagrees…

Children under 5 travel for free on the London Underground (Tube) and all TfL services at all times, provided they are accompanied by a fare-paying adult. While they travel for free, they are not strictly entitled to a seat and are expected to sit on a lap or stand if the train is busy. 1, 2, 3]
Free Travel: Up to four children under 5 can travel free with one fare-paying adult on Tube, DLR, and London Overground services.
Seating: They do not occupy a seat if it is required by a paying passenger. During busy times, they should be on a lap.