Hand on shoulder

[ThankThink]

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.

AIBU to think this is not ok?

The girls don't like it but no one has yet said anything. I have told her to move away when it happens again but Dd worries about being impolite. I role played with her how to move away. I am so cross about this, not even my extended family would think of touching her casually for no reason.

What would you advise and how do I advise dd?

Agree. No one is in any volunteer position like this without safeguarding training.

He is actively grooming. This isn’t his first or last attempt so it needs to go to DSL to be escalated and not dealt with by a 15 year old victim which just allows him to move on to someone else.

I am sorry that your DD has experienced this but be proud that she has come to you and you can take action to affect change to protect her and hopefully others.

If you're stuck, copilot or chat gpt are a great help.

Thank you, both posts are excellent advice. I wouldn't have thought to tell them not to discuss this with dd with us being present.

I think the way you’ve expressed it here does the job nicely OP. No faux outrage or hyperbole, calmly stating the facts and that your DD doesn’t like it but doesn’t feel able to say anything. Everyone can read between the lines (that he’s being a letch).

I'd go along with her to the next one and inform him that if he puts hands on these literal children one more time, he won't have hands left. I have an absolute zero tolerance policy where touching is concerned; our daughters are not public property.

So poor that his reapeated behaviour must have been clocked and NOT corrected by others. Not a group that children should ever be trusted in to take them away on a trip.

I agree about rehearsing a form of words, but we women really need to move away from being polite when we're telling men to stop touching us!

He's not being polite by doing it; she doesn't owe him politeness back while telling (not asking) him to stop!

I'm not advocating rudeness, telling him to eff off or something, but no need for the 'please' when your asserting bodily boundaries that have been over--stepped. It sounds meek which won't be helpful in this situation.

When you are used to being compliant, assertiveness can seem rude. It isn't.

I find MN fascinating.
A month ago people were telling a parent whose child might have been given a fiver by a vicar to go to the police.
But now a group leader is actively making teenage girls feel uncomfortable by his behaviour and most advice is for the teen to do something (disclaimer I only read the first couple of pages of replies).
It doesn't matter if he is of a different era and might not know its a problem. Everyone who works with teens in any capacity should do safeguarding training of some sort. They should be DBS checked. This needs reporting to the leader of the group/safeguarding lead.

No, you're spot on. Pages of posts, so many saying, "She has to learn to do this herself. Tell her to swivel to the right, and spin about while raising her..." "It sounds difficult, but let me draw you a diagram, all she has to do is..."

OP is the adult, and it has been brought to her attention - ie her daughter has come to her for protection - and she is quibbling and wavering and unsure how to word it now she has finally grasped she has to say something (wouldn't want to cause an atmosphere, etc). But the expectation is the teen girl must learn complex physical moves and pull them out on the spot when manhandled by a man in his sixties.

It's not the group leader as outlined.

@peppermintfizz this has only come to my attention very recently. I have found the posts extremely helpful. No quibbling no wavering. HTH.

But the expectation is the teen girl must learn complex physical moves and pull them out on the spot when manhandled by a man in his sixties.

It will be reported. What if this happens again, either with the same guy or someone else, somewhere else? Of course she should know how to position herself so he or some other person who behaves inappropriately cannot touch her. It is the very thing that gets taught in self defence classes for women.

A colleague did this to me once and I froze and didn’t say anything. He walked past me and touched my shoulder as he did (I was sitting and he standing). I told DH and he said it was because he was Greek so it’ll just be a cultural difference… It creeped me out, I just don’t expect people to touch me.

I think it is a massively unprofessional and yes, creepy thing to do. I’d have a word with whoever is above him about it, the girls are unlikely to say anything.

I’d teach her to move his hand away and step back. If he says something like “are you ok?” Or “is there a problem?” She just needs to say “I’m fine thank you”
if it’s continues I’d report it

I could absolutely go in and tell this man to stop touching the girls. But the sad reality is is she will probably have to handle this again and more than once, and she’s old enough for the op to consider teaching her techniques to handle it, it seems a safe environment for the girl to try it, so I was one of the posters recommending the girl remove his hand. Might give her the confidence to act when she really needs it. As one of the large majority of women who have needed to shove someone away.

I d go up to him. Look him clearly in the eye and ask why he thinks it's ok to invade other people's personal space...and hold your gaze.
The ensuing embarrassment is all on him.

Step one. Reassure her you will speak up about it and do what you can to ensure it doesn't happen again. Then do so.

Step two. Teach her, and practice with her, how to speak up in the moment and/or move away from such unwanted closeness and inappropriate touch.

You can't expect a 15 year old to act out assertively in the presence of an older adult male when you are not modelling assertiveness from the get-go.

I am glad you intend speaking up, eventually, but your language throughout this thread and in the OP has been pretty avoidant of stepping up and playing your role as the adult in this situation.

Have had to deal with far worse, myself, starting at a much younger age and continuing with multiple male offenders throughout my life. So, yes, I grasp she will need at some point to learn how to deal with it. For now, she is in shock, in the moment, and also timid and unsure of her place. Even her mother is unsure and timid. And keeps putting it back on her daughter to fix for herself.

Good idea for dd to tell the other girls to move away.
Yes there are ways to mention this but as we all know calling someone out in this way has often repercussions. Dd enjoys the hobby and ideally she manages it. She needs to learn to assert her personal space anyway, she is way too polite and accepting of adult authority. I feel rubbish as I would have made it sharply clear that I don't like it even when I was a teenager. My dd is a lot less assertive.

No. We are not here to embarrass serial offenders - that’s what he is - he has specifically targeted 3 young teen females out of a larger group. His actions are a specific intentional
pattern of unacceptable grooming behaviours - he knows this as does anyone with 2 mins of safeguarding training.

Dealing with him directly gives the opportunity for ‘plausible deniability’
him being self righteous and offended. This is why it doesn’t even go to the club leader but the DSL who knows exactly the procedure without being blustered by an abuser.

If you were a teacher and a pupil told you this about another teacher you have an absolute obligation to escalate this to the DSL - it would not be for you to make a personal judgement about the encounter or for you to give direction on self defence - the onus is solely on the adult hearing this information to act immediately to escalate to the correct person.

I 100% agree with you about that @GingerdeadMan , I wouldn't feel the need to be polite at all in the circumstances - indeed I HAVE physically removed a manager's hand when he placed it on my shoulder (in front of loads of colleagues).

But, I was trying to find a form of words that @ThankThink 's daughter would feel able to use.

I also strongly agree that we should be teaching our teenage daughters to stand up for themselves (generally, not just about unwanted physical contact) - and not worry about being "nice".

Does the club have a children’s officer or a safeguarding officer? It really needs to be said.

This is ridiculous. This child didn’t know what to do in this situation and the overwhelming advice was for mum to raise with the leader and ALSO to teach child how to deal with this situation in the future. Not every child will feel able to say ‘please don’t touch me’ or physically remove an adult’s hand, but WILL feel able to step back with some practice. The advice in that situation to twist is a good one.

It’s unlikely that this is the only time they will ever find themselves in this situation and they clearly need help to figure out what to do when it happens again.

Op, if I were you I would ask that the DSL does not disclose to the man who the complaint has come from without clearing it with you first.

There are over 200 posts on this thread, so I won't quote them all, but here are just a few:

-“Take your hand off my shoulder, Brian” (“You cock!”)
-'Did you know you are not allowed to touch people without their consent?' while moving away and giving a very disgusted look.
-If she just deliberately removes his hand then he will either realise what he is doing and stop, or if he puts it back, then you know there is a problem.
-I think if she raises the hand on the same side as that shoulder, so her arm is on the inside of his arm and she just pushes it away from her to the side it will prevent that.
-Bend down to scratch leg- step back- stand up.
-The moment he puts his hand on her shoulder, she turns her head to look directly at his hand and does not speak a further word until it’s removed.
-She needs to move away and say "please don't do that I don't like it".
-The girls can stand just that little bit too far away for him to be able to reach their shoulders
-If she is comfortable doing so, tell her to step sideways out of reach as he goes to touch her, she can smile as she does it, if she is worried about creating an atmosphere.
-If hand is already on shoulder she needs to raise her hand , same side , straight up on the inside of his arm and bat his hand away to the outside. (She will probably contact his wrist). If she has her phone, bag or pen in hand she can bat his arm with that.
-Don't touch, thank you, whilst nudging the hand off her shoulder, or shrugging and twisting away to the side and back. It's only a direct back step that would drop hand to breast so you either push his arm to the side as you step away or twist yourself to the side as you step back, or a combo of the two. Voice and body language together.

And so on and so forth. All good advice, but really the first thing that needs to happen is for an adult (OP) to speak to an activity leader.

Op I think it will come with more confidence and being more assertive as she gets older. I had this happen in different jobs and as a younger woman you feel like you can’t speak up where as I’m much older I would be saying get the fuck off me or don’t fucking touch me so others can hear me. I hate that men think this is ok and it’s definitely not.

But then it’s too late for the child that has been sexually assaulted and that’s exactly why these abusers target children - because the societal power imbalance allows them to groom.