Hand on shoulder

[ThankThink]

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.

AIBU to think this is not ok?

The girls don't like it but no one has yet said anything. I have told her to move away when it happens again but Dd worries about being impolite. I role played with her how to move away. I am so cross about this, not even my extended family would think of touching her casually for no reason.

What would you advise and how do I advise dd?

Only thing is she'd have to touch his hand or arm 🙁

You are 100% right to be cross. If the girls are uncomfortable, then it is a problem, period. It’s tough when they’re at an age where they don't want to "be rude," but it might be time for you or another parent to have a quiet word with the organizer. No one should be touching a 15-year-old girl like that.

She will, but excellent practice for handsy men. Practice with you and your dh her firmly picking up the hand on her shoulder and dropping it off sideways. An ‘excuse me’ (a token, dismissive one, NOT an apologetic one) is a safe accompaniment. Tell her to picture a large bit of fluff- yuk, of course she is going to move it off her shoulder.

Hi OP.

with kindness i think it comes across that you are shaming your daughter for 'letting him'. As you say, you don't know the dynamic and culture there well because you're not involved. It's obvs not as easy and there must be a power dynamic and some 'cost' to making him look bad if everyone is keeping quiet.

please stop telling your dd what to do and hoping she gets it from a movie or whatever. Get involved in the sport, be there, talk to people yourself. I'm surprised that you're annoyed at your dd and everyone else for 'letting' it happen and when it's suggested you do you say it should be someone else.

be there the next few times and next time he does it say something like 'oh best not to touch the girls Trevor, no need'

show the girls you can be assertive without being rude or whatever it is they're afraid to be by not speaking up.

Telling your daughter she's 'doing it wrong' isn't good, her instinct to 'do nothing' maybe her survival brain saying that this is the safest thing to do. Teach her to trust HER instinct and show how to act on it

I would be way less polite and just tell him to stop touching people. It's not about how it could be seen. It's unwanted touching.

Someone needs to tell him to stop doing this, and it's too hard for teen girls to navigate. If you want to teach her how to be assertive, maybe the best solution is for you to tell him to his face to stop, in front of her.

It's not even stop touching people - it's stop touching the teenage girls.

This and a million times this.

My mother taught me all the wrong things about being submissive and letting men off for things they did wrong. For example she thought it was hilarious when much older men were touching me or trying to come onto me. It sends a very poor message about personal boundaries.

It sounds like you didn’t do this but she’s picked it up generally from society and her peers. But it’s so important to learn to be assertive particularly with potentially predatory or abusive men. Are there any courses on assertiveness for young women near you? I think I would have to say something to this man to show your daughter and her peers how to stand up for themselves.

It's good that you're talking to your DD and giving her general strategies. But this only protects her (at best). He is a risk to all the girls in the group, and you need to act to protect them, too, not just your daughter.

You need to speak to the leader, and ensure they understand safeguarding.

Dont let them brush you off with 'Oh, that's just Barry.' He's a creep, and he's doing it on purpose. He's only doing it to a few girls - that's not simply a tactile person who doesn't realise he's doing it; it's deliberate targeting.

Please report this as a serious breach of safeguarding.

Regardless of motive - he is - as factually as you can say it - making young women feel uncomfortable.

I growled at a man who put his hand on my waist to move me out of his way when I was a teenager which was 40 years ago, don't know why that was my impulse (other than growing up with big dogs) but it worked!! Had the death stare to a fine art by 16, its been used all through my life since then. Teach your daughter to just say 'stop touching me', its not easy but once she's done it she'll see its power and that'll stand to her forever.

I would also tell my DD myself that this is not about her and how she acts -it's about his role and overreaching safeguarding approach.

So - it can't and must not be about her individual response - you need to keep all the young people safe who this man comes into contact with - by doing what you can as an adult and reporting him.

This is so true.
They never touch the ones who they think might call them out.

I think we have to be very careful not to give the message to girls that it is up to them to stop men doing things like this.

of course they have to learn how to manage and respond to it because unfortunately predators exist.

but teaching girls that they can't 'let' someone do things like that means that if something bad happens they may feel extra shame and distress because they 'let' it happen and didn't fight back or whatever. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are times when fighting back etc places you kn a more dangerous situation.

we have to teach girls that the responsibility lies solely
with the man and it's ok not to know what to do and to ask for help, which your daughter has done. Praise her for that instead of being disappointed in her not being assertive like you were.

You run the real risk of her not telling you next time because in case you're annoyed and disappointed in her again

She’s clearly inherited your timidity.
Just speak up!

She could do a movement like this. She will push his arm away with the side of her arm. I think this is what a pp was describing. It’s less icky than picking up his hand.

this is a karate block and of course it doesn’t need to be so forceful or precise, as he’s not using force, but it is a self defence move, and that’s entirely appropriate.

she can practice it with you, repeatedly so she has muscle memory . She can teach her friends. I think it could be quite empowering.

He shouldn't be touching anyone.

Of course he shouldn't be touching anyone. But he isn't touching just anyone. He has singled out a small group of teenage girls. He isn't putting his hand on the OP's shoulder, is he.

Exactly.

I think you're missing my point. If I were addressing it with him I would tell him to stop touching people without their consent. I have a son and a daughter. I would want to make it clear that he shouldn't be touching anyone - under or over 18 - as who knows, he may also be doing it to adults (undoubtedly female) and making them feel uncomfortable too. I am applying this thinking to the sorts of clubs my kids go to there are a number of sessions throughout the week and my children only attend some so impossible to know what he does in the other sessions.

It's a useful move to learn. The key is to think of it as a sideways move, not a retreat.

If he's touching her left shoulder, she'll use her left arm.

Keep the upper arm where it is, bring the lower arm across your body and up in a semicircle - imagine you're about to scratch your nose or push your glasses up, but need to scratch your opposite arm on the way

When your hand reaches your nose, keep the circular movement going in the same direction and bring the upper arm into it as well. Your lower arm will be vertical, hand upwards, and you're pushing his arm sideways away to your left using the back of your hand/wrist.

At the same time, step to your right.

Practice both sides until you can do it fast, in 1 smooth movement. It relies on speed rather than strength.

Remember this is a social defence move, not a self defence one for a full attack, because if you're not fast enough it can leave you in a position for an attacker to grab your wrist. But in a safe place like a hobby group with witnesses someone like this won't press the point and draw even more attention, and it should shock a casual grabber enough to stay away in future.

I see workworkwork got there faster by using pictures.

I hate people pleasing and try to reinforce to my kids that you never need permission to say no.
The fact he’s holding their shoulder isn’t just seedy, it implies a need to exert power or to control.
Regardless of his intentions, he needs to stop. Tell him, the group leader, and any senior figure above them in whatever organisation this is.
If you really can’t be present- and it sounds like you should- and she can’t speak up, you might consider teaching her to lose eye contact, look directly at the hand and back to his eyes, repeatedly. With a very withering look.

"I will tell her to stop smiling at him and if she looks at him to give off assertive, cold vibes"

Please stop giving your daughter the impression that she's responsible for this man's behaviour through her actions /inaction.

I know you've said you want to empower her to deal with this on her own but she's a child and she's asked you for help. Please have her back and take control of the situation by reporting him to the safeguarding lead and / or speaking to him yourself.

Children don't learn to be adults by being forced to deal with situations which are beyond their maturity. You may have had the confidence to deal with this but she hasnt (and many grown up women wouldn't either, because we've been socialised to be polite / not make a scene.

You sticking up for her will help give her confidence. But all this talk of not encouraging him/ not smiling at him/ not being rude is giving her mixed messages and suggesting that she's somehow to blame. She isn't, and she needs to know that you believe that too.

I think you are missing my point.

He is targeting young girls, in this gathering of all ages. Not all the young girls, but particular young girls. If he was doing it with everyone, then it would be a case of requesting he stop touching people in general. But in this case, it is several 15 year old girls.

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.