Hand on shoulder

[ThankThink]

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.

AIBU to think this is not ok?

The girls don't like it but no one has yet said anything. I have told her to move away when it happens again but Dd worries about being impolite. I role played with her how to move away. I am so cross about this, not even my extended family would think of touching her casually for no reason.

What would you advise and how do I advise dd?

we got a man like this at a place I go too he keeps wanting to hug all the women.

He should not be touching anyone without consent, let alone teen girls.

She needs to learn to not accept this kind of shit (she shouldn’t have to but there are sleazy fuckers everywhere). And also that it is not important to be polite about it.

Can you (rather than your DH) speak to him in front of her so she can see how, as a young woman, she can take the power back?

You reminded me though. I did a little karate as a teenager and I knew there was a block as you described.

I would discreetly ask the group leader to observe the behaviour and comment directly to the instructor about the modern way of communicating.
Ask the group leader to insist that the elderly trainer refrains from the practice as he is likely making the girls uncomfortable even though he is not meaning to.

What that does is potentially allow him to bully her / shame her in public. You don't know how he'll react - and neither does she which is what often stops women from speaking up. If he's a bully you can guarantee that he'll bully her in public (and maybe ) in private .
Yes, teenagers do have to learn how to manage creeps but why on earth as parents you're looking (as you seem to be doing) to give her the responsibility for tackling a 60 plus year old in a position of power defies belief.

As @OrangeRhymesWith points out above
"we have to teach girls that the responsibility lies solely with the man and it's ok not to know what to do and to ask for help, which your daughter has done. Praise her for that instead of being disappointed in her not being assertive like you were".

A child has disclosed that a man is repeatedly touching her and her friends. It shouldn't be happening and it's up to adults to put a stop to it. Once that's happened then address confidence, self defence and assertiveness strategies. But first the adults must ensure his behaviour stops.

They think you are being unreasonable in leaving it up to the young girls to speak up, when you are the adult who should be speaking up to a group leader, or to him.

She’s on the cusp of being a young woman. She shouldn’t have to even think about this but that’s why I suggested the OP speaks to him in front of her daughter.

You can’t protect her forever and she needs to find her anger so that she feels confident to stand up to any sleazy fuckers out there.

Too many men get away with this because they know girls are socialised to be polite and not speak up. So they see it as easy pickings.

The only 'quiet word' needed here is 'Stop touching people, or get out and don't come back.' Or just the second part.

He's not that elderly, and knows perfectly well 'the modern way of communicating'.

Moving his hand would be very powerful and would be very noticeable. What a creep.

From a different viewpoint...I'm quite touchy when talking. I don't even realise I'm doing it sometimes.

You need to stop doing it.

She can wordlessly take a large step sideways so his hand would fall into fresh air rather than anywhere else.

Your husband definitely needs to raise this.

I bet this man isn't doing this to the men and boys in the group is he. 😡(Even if he is he shouldn't be btw and I'd still raise it.)

Do the other girls from the group know your dd well? I'd get them all on the same page in terms of them agreeing he shouldn't be putting hands on them, that its inappropriate and creepy. There will be others that are better at the teenage death stare or have more vocal attitudes and there is power in numbers in terms of standing together and all looking out for each other.

Would your DD be interested in any sort of self defence op? It really helps with confidence too.

We had a Nippy Norm for the same reason

We were taught at a first responders course that we had to ask before we touched anyone. No exceptions, unless they were actually unconcious, as it's assault otherwise.

If he's only doing it to a few girls, he's picking the ones that won't complain. She does need to be able to say things as it can get very tricky in late teens with old men.

This is dominance assertive behaviour and the fact is on teen girls is creeping me out

Please stop doing this. Do you do it to adults too?

Either way you shouldn’t touch ANYONE without consent, regardless of their age. I am AUDHD and won’t accept anyone touching me without consent. I’m also post menopausal so I am not particularly polite about it.

I sat next to a woman on a coach once who was leaning across me to wave to her friend. She could see I was uncomfortable so she put her hand on my fucking arm whilst explaining why she was waving.

Let’s just say it made for an awkward journey for her after I told her loudly and clearly to take her hands off me.

I think you're unreasonable @ThankThink not to turn up at the hobby, have a quiet word with paedo man and then see what happens subsequently.

@Pandolly don't be touchy. If you want to touch someone . ..ask permission. Stop doing what you're doing no matter WHAT your intention is

Maybe she'd find it easier to be assertive if she pretended to be startled i.e. if he touches her she jumps and says loudly 'what are you doing?!'.

Bend arm at elbow, bring it up and sweep his hand off going from inside to outside. Assume stance.

You're going to have to bring this up to him and to whoever's in charge over this group. This guy is just another attendee, what the fuck is he doing touching 15 year olds? That he's only doing it to a few of the girls and that your daughter is passive when some dude puts his hand on her shoulder is red flag behaviours. He needs to be set straight and shut down hard. Your daughter needs to learn to set boundaries.

Older men do know better than to act pervy. They know not to go up to teens and touch them among a lot of other red flag behaviours.

The first time he laid a hand on my daughter I would have been up in his face.

Not RTFT but can your DD avoid this by stepping to one side. Then the man's hand comes off over her shoulder. Or as people have suggested, she could perhaps sweep his hand off her shoulder. The adults in the group should not be allowing this touching; also, could you try and get there and intervene? Yes, it's good for your DD to be able to look after herself but she's still pretty young; one or more of the adults should be stepping in. As you and others have said, really important that your DD does not learn that her feelings are less important than those of some creepy guy.

Is it not strange also that the leader and the other adults don't tell this guy to cut it out? They must all be aware.

Maybe? But it's not the issue. She hasn't gone to them for help, she has gone to you for help. So help her. Of course, teach her how she can be more assertive, how to spot creepy men, and that politeness does not overrule comfort. But mostly teach her that when she needs your help you will do it immediately. I don't understand why you haven't already spoken to the group leader and taken that off your daughter's mind.

All the safeguarding is fine but your DD won’t be able to rely on that forever (not that she sounds like she can rely on it as they are clearly useless).

Until boys and men learn not to be creepy (ie never) she should be encouraged to do self defence or whatever so that she has the confidence to speak up in the future.

I agree with PP. Stop it.

Your intentions might be pure, but they are also all in your head. I don't know what they are. I can't know - any more than you can know the intentions of the man in this group. That is one reason why your intentions don't make it OK.

The other is that I don't care what your intentions are. I don't like strangers touching me. I'm not keen on most people I know touching me, aside from a few very specific situations. Lots of people don't. You're doing it for your benefit, not mine. So don't do it.

It's not hard to get him to let go if you don't overthink it.

If he comes up behind her and places his hand on her shoulder, she steps forward and twists round at the same time to face him, so he has to release his grip.

If he comes up in front of her and put his hand on her shoulder, she takes a big step backwards and at the same brushes his arm away with his hand, like she's swatting a fly.

If he's dumb enough to try to hold on, she takes more steps away from him.

If he's dumb enough to vocally object (and he'd have to be really dumb to say 'Why won't you let me grab you", she says loudly, "I don't like it."

If he doesn't get the message after that, then take it further.

But you really, really need to teach your DD to find her voice. My DD16 gets the Tube to college and one morning a man in a suit – i.e. outwardly respectful – tried to press up against her. It wasn't busy. She said very loudly so the entire carriage heard, "Can you please not stand so close to me when there's plenty of room" and he moved away like he'd been electrocuted!

She spoke up because I've always said to her that if a man makes you feel physically uncomfortable, don't tolerate it. Oh, and shout "fire" instead of "help" because more people will come running.

The only benefit to Covid was that people had to keep their hands to themselves