Hand on shoulder

[ThankThink]

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.

AIBU to think this is not ok?

The girls don't like it but no one has yet said anything. I have told her to move away when it happens again but Dd worries about being impolite. I role played with her how to move away. I am so cross about this, not even my extended family would think of touching her casually for no reason.

What would you advise and how do I advise dd?

Also worth remembering that someone can have a DBS, and an organisation can have every safeguarding box ticked correctly. This does not prevent a first offence. Or a first time of being caught after getting away with things previously.

@ThankThink Maybe show your daughter the video of Lucille Ball calling out a television show host:

https://www.upworthy.com/lucille-ball-calls-out-host-ex1-2/

He’s seeing what he can get away with, and he will push that boundary further and further. Report him

I reported someone at work for this and it was taken very seriously and he was disciplined. Why should it be any different? I nearly didn’t report it as I didn’t want to rock the boat and then thought why should I have to endure and turn a blind eye. In his case I think it was demeaning and condescending rather than sexual but it was unwanted contact. I think it’s very important to teach your daughter she shouldn’t have to put up and you decide whether you’ll deal with it or she can by shrugging her shoulder and pulling away.

Spin away from him, turning to be side on and call a friend over to join in the conversation. Hey Heather John is just telling me about…

I'm not sure why some people love to point out 'but he could be doing it to the boys too, that wouldn't be OK'.

Its no it wouldn't, but that line of thought deflects attention from the likely sexual element here (i know some men are gay, gays can be perverts too, etc etc). But while we're wringing our hands about side other issues that may or may not be at play here, this man is still touching young women inappropriately and possibly getting a sexual kick too.

Its like when people insist 'but women can be perverts/sex offenders too!
They can , but it's vanishingly rare, and usually irrelevant to the conversation, and the inappropriate focus on the few women benefits male offenders by steering the attention away from them.

Dear God. We are on the same side. Why the pendantry? If I want to state what I would hypothetically say in a situation that doesn't exist for me, I will. Some people will start an argument in an empty room. I give up.

This makes me so cross. Bloody man. It’s so hard to speak up when this happens to you. Find your inner bolshy teenager OP and handle this for your DD. I think the best route is to talk to the group leader and make it clear the touching needs to stop and there is to be no fallout for the girls involved.

You had better become more aware of what you're doing. It's inappropriate. You don't touch people without permission and that includes children.

What you think of as caring could come off as ignoring their boundaries or worse.

It has only come to my attention this week that this has been ongoing, so I am still processing the situation and preparing how best to address it. This thread is enormously helpful. Thanks all for the solidarity.

I found that there is a DSL and have their email details.

What is the best way to write the email so that I communicate the issue clearly and appropriately?

Should I cc the group lead or keep the initial message only to the DSL? I also found the email address of the organiser of the local organisation.

My primary aged DC has a BFF who is black and hates people playing with their hair. Their reaction is always to say 'I don't like your hands on me, please respect my personal space'. It always makes me laugh when DC tells me 'they needed to say it again today'. But good on them. Your DD should do this.

I wish we could normalise not touching anyone without permission (except for first aid or emergency reasons). That way the tactile people can be free to touch those who don’t mind and those of us who hate being touched don’t have to be on guard all the time

That child’s parents have nailed it! Good on them!

It just goes to show, we shouldn’t be teaching children to be people pleasers, we need instead to teach them setting boundaries, speaking up if they don’t like something or they see unfairness, not being overly polite apart from saying please and thank you as appropriate and that’s all.

This is sadly not at all encouraged in schools.

I think someone can be polite and still assertive if required. The problem is that, as men and boys apparently can’t be prevented from harassing girls and women (and you can see how some indulgent ‘boy mums’ have let them think it’s okay) people have a responsibility to teach girls how to deal with it.

Of course they shouldn’t have to but there is too much emphasis on being brought up to be kind and empathetic and not enough on self protection, because at 18/20/50 there is no one to safeguard them and if they don’t feel empowered to stand up to these sleazy arseholes, then they become just the latest generation to have to put up with this.

Oh I know, been there and really made that mistake, and that manners were all important. It made both my children far too polite and backfired, as they don’t speak up for themselves easily. I obviously educated on inappropriate behaviour but those two things do not go well together.

Like I said above, it’s possible to be polite but not be a pushover when it comes to boundaries.

Copy both in my opinion. What harm can it do?

’Im concerned to hear that x has been touching my child and others, (insert factual description of hand on shoulder here- Include dates and occurrences if possible).They say this makes them very uncomfortable.
I request that you have him stop. If this is to be discussed in any way with my child, I will need to be informed in advance; it is not to happen without my presence or consent. I look forward to your response’.

Don’t leave yourself open to him accusing you of making unsubstantiated claims. Just the facts. He did this, our kids wish it to stop.

In the email to the DSL stick to the facts and how the situation makes DD feel. I think cc'ing the group leader is reasonable.
Report what happened to DD at the last meeting, naming the people involved and how it made DD feel. Say that this is the first time you were aware. Report that DD says it has happened before, and over what period of time and what frequency, if DD thinks she can remember this.
If your DD is sure about the names of other people he has done this to, include that too. If she has had a conversation with some of those people and the have explicitly said they don't like it, include that. Don't try and find any more information from others in the group, just what your DD has already told you.
Say that your DD does not want this man to touch her any more. Say that you have told her to [strategy you want her to try] but she also needs support to manage the situation.

No need to reiterate. I saw your reply and didn’t really agree and therefore felt no need to respond, but now you’ve been impolite and pushed it.

Young girls are expected to be far politer than boys are (although I personally expected both mine to be equally polite, as I saw that as unequal between the genders). Now, I’d do it very differently and not require either of them to kowtow to anyone. There is being polite (enough) and there’s rolling over being too polite. Got it?

Wow. At least nobody can accuse you of being too polite.

I didn’t register you were the same poster both times.

(And at the risk of being ‘that’ poster - it’s sexes, not genders)

I think you're doing the right things @ThankThink .

Definitely talk to the group leader about it, as well as the safeguarding lead (DSL).

Also role play with your daughter actions like stepping away, and/or simply removing his hand. And give her a form of words to use - maybe just simply
"please take your hand off my shoulder"
which is non-confrontational and can't be construed as rude.

No, absolutely, I respond how I’m spoken to. I didn’t find how you were badgering me for an answer or how you’re now correcting me on sex and gender polite. So ta ta.