Hand on shoulder

[ThankThink]

Teen Dd takes part in a weekly activity outside of school, which is attended by a wider age range. One of the men attending, has the habit of placing his hand on the young girls shoulder when he speaks with them. So he approaches a girl and while speaking to her places one hand on her shoulder. He does this mostly with 2-3 girls not all of them. The girls are all 15.

AIBU to think this is not ok?

The girls don't like it but no one has yet said anything. I have told her to move away when it happens again but Dd worries about being impolite. I role played with her how to move away. I am so cross about this, not even my extended family would think of touching her casually for no reason.

What would you advise and how do I advise dd?

In my mind the key to this is that she doesn't want him to do it.

Yes it might just be a habit and he may have absolutely no bad intentions but if he is doing something to her that makes her feel uncomfortable, then it needs to stop.

As a parent you need to (and I'm not saying you are not doing this as it looks very much like you are) ensure that she has the skills to ensure this stops.

If she needs your help with it, then that's fine, the safeguarding lead is probably the best place to start.

If I've understood it correctly this when he is facing her and talking to her, so that does seem a deliberate action, rather than a habit. (I know when I was teaching I was aware I sometimes would put my hand on the shoulder of a pupil if I had marked their work over their shoulder, but absolutely not lingering and it was a habit I had from teaching very young children. I made efforts to stop it)

You told her the right thing hopefully she’ll pass this information onto the other girls. Also, whoever is his manager needs to be told ASAP. This is what he does in front of people. What would he do not in front of people?

For far too long women have accepted invasion of their space and worse for fear of being “impolite”. Tell your husband he has no idea what he’s talking about and empower your daughter to move or speak up to say “please don’t touch me”.

Because men like your own husband think those girls should put up with it?

Maybe they don’t want to be impolite?

The OP doesn’t mention her husband thinking this is OK at all. Why have you said that?

This is weird
what sort of hobby is this with old men perving over young girls?
There was an incident in a nearby town near us some sort of martial art class where the teachers were much older men, I can tell you now my daughter wouldn’t be going!

You’re right I read it was he husband saying it’s impolite rather than the daughter. Ok society seems to have told her that - it needs nipping in the bud!

It shouldn’t be up to girls to tell him no. He shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. Please advocate for your dd. Anyone working with children and young people should have had some basic safeguarding training and would know not to do this so he is clearly breaching boundaries.

Thinking about this some more. If your daughter is very confident, I would say to her to tell him please could you not do that and move away.

However, safeguarding people, whoever are responsible, absolutely need to deal with this too. I would actually go as far as to say this is disgusting behaviour.

I also had a death stare as a teenager. I don’t know why but my Spidey senses said to keep all male and even some female adults at arms length. Maybe as kids we sometimes heard things in the 80s or we sensed things about creepy men, some were much more overt and letching you therefore knew they were not all trustworthy.

I think creepy men these days are harder to detect because they’re good at hiding it in plain sight and appearing friendly and confident, they are able to put on a much more ‘normal’ front which is difficult for kids to see today.

First thing to do is to contact the group leader as soon as possible. Stick to the facts and let them know that it's not just that your DD finds it uncomfortable, but that it is wrong and men are not allowed to touch children in this way.
You can look at their safeguarding policies if you want some evidence to back you up.

Then work on ways that your daughter can deescalate these types of situations.

This is for the adults to sort out in the first instance, it should not be down to the teenagers.

I think he's a creepy f*cker, but I have seen this play out in an innocent way, which confirms the creepiness at play here.

I work with teenagers and a new older man joined the team (in his 60s). Part of our job is to respond to the children's questions and quite often they are sitting down and we are wandering around supervising. This new guy went to answer a question and placed a hand on the child's shoulder. As soon as he did this another member of the team swooped in and told him that it was not allowed, and he looked horrified. He then reported himself to the team leader and apologized.

He now does the designated 'Prince Phillip Walk' i.e. he clasps his hands behind his back when bending down to talk to the kids. It means that there is no chance of even accidental touching.

It's pretty easy to not touch teenagers.

Personally I would would text, WhatsApp or email the group lead so you can evidence that you have raised the issue. It's totally inappropes for this man to be behaving in this way and shocking that they haven't already put a stop to it.

All the girls need to know it's not OK, and they should move away. They only learn this by adults sticking up for them.

My tall, teenage, DD had a ‘visiting expert’ drape his arm around her shoulders when offering praise on something she did. She pointedly picked his hand off her shoulder, and he laughed awkwardly. DD told me this because she (nor I) would usually have the self confidence to do something like this, but it just felt right in the moment.
OP I’d definitely have a quiet word with a group leader gently highlighting the changed norms in society (noting the guy’s age). I’m only suggesting the gentle approach to protect your DD’s participation, not him.
But please be gentle in advising your DD in changing her behaviour- she should not have to change or be on guard. It is this grown man who should be changing his behaviour.

The girls can stand just that little bit too far away for him to be able to reach their shoulders but great advice to share with all the girls to step away when he does do it…….hopefully he’ll soon get the message.

Someone might feel inclined to check that he is DBS cleared……..doesn’t mean he’s entirely innocent but it is a starting point surely?!

Personally, if he did it to me I would be immediately cutting in with ‘take your hand off my shoulder’………said firmly and politely should be all that’s needed. A second attempt might not be quite so polite though!

I would have been like your DD and too worried to say anything to an adult. You need to be the parent and advocate for your child. Speak to the group leader and get feedback about what they’re doing to resolve the situation. They should have a named safeguarding person for the group. Does he do the same with boys? If he doesn’t, he is well aware of what he is doing.

This is being turned into something that it very likely isn't. Unfair of PPs to call him a perv and a creep. My DS did football and the coaches put their hands on the boys shoulders talking to them, there was nothing untoward going on.
That's not to say the DD is wrong for being uncomfortable or would be wrong to tell him not to do it. It's fine for a parent to tell him DD is uncomfortable too but not in a way that throws around unwarranted accusations.
I remember a post on here were a mother complained that a volunteer touched her child without consent to the leader. The volunteer had led the child to the dance floor to encourage their participation. Volunteer was upset and gave up the role. People were more supportive of the volunteer in that situation and understood how they would feel having accusatory language used against them when they were volunteering their time to help others.

Please stop teaching your daughters to be “polite” 🙏👏

Is it not strange also that the leader and the other adults don't tell this guy to cut it out? They must all be aware.

You're aware and you haven't told him, either. I would say something very directly to him and to the leaders of the group. Putting this on your daughter is not okay. Show her an example of how you deal with this kind of thing. Giving her the message that this is happenng because she needs to be more confident and assertive is completely wrong. It's happening because the guy is being creepy. Do something about it.

One thing I’ve learned over the year is it doesn’t matter how dangerous a teacher / coach acts, there will be dozens of people sitting back silently watching it happen!

That’s her personality at the moment t though. I have only got more assertive as I’ve got older. I think she needs your help with this.

I am a volunteer with teens. We have very strict training. We are never to be alone with them in a one and one situation and we are never to touch them or go into their personal space. We are doing this for their sake and also for our own sake so there is never any doubt or accusations.
Go straight to the leader and say John is putting his hand on the girls shoulders, this is not appropriate and must die. Straight out. The leader needs to know and really should have picked up on this himself/ herself.
I remember as a teenager some men were inappropriate and no one did anything even though everyone sniggered and commented.

Do this.

Not must die..must stop!!

I would not jump immediately to grooming. Let's not be hysterical. Its a hand on the shoulder of a girl he does know. Saying that, he needs to be more aware of appropriate conduct with the girls. For his own good as well as theirs.

If she is comfortable doing so, tell her to step sideways out of reach as he goes to touch her, she can smile as she does it, if she is worried about creating an atmosphere.

I wouldn't bother smiling but it's up to her how assertive she is comfortable being.

Every time he steps towards her, she moves too, keep him out of her personal space. If she can't move away, say 'Excuse me please' and move past him. Keep creating your personal space. Most people quickly get the hint.

If she is not comfortable doing this then either you or someone else needs to step in. When he does it, just move between them, gently brushing the hand away if necessary. Smile and say 'she doesn't like being touched.' If he argues it was just being friendly, keep smiling and say firmly 'of course, but she doesn't like it and we respect her boundaries.' Repeat as necessary.

You aren't being hostile or rude, you're being downright friendly so it shouldn't escalate anything but he will be forced to accept the boundary to avoid looking a twat.

Your daughter has told you this man makes her feel uncomfortable when he puts a hand on her.... absolutely have a word with him yourself next time you see him do it. Tell him remove his hand from your child as she's clearly not comfortable with it..have a word with the activity group leader too. The man is a grown adult putting his hands on minor children..surely the group leader will have been DBS checked due to working with kids-tell this leader to do their job and safeguard the children within the activity

I think women (sadly) do need to learn how to navigate these situations. But at 15, I think I'd be wanting to be a bit more proactive than advising her how to deal with it by herself, because I'd also want her to know that I and other older women will be in her corner, and it's not a fight she has to fight alone.
I would speak to the group leader. Phrase it as your own concern rather than 'DD feels uncomfortable'. Say you have become aware this man unnecessarily touches the girls when speaking to them, you think its inappropriate and would like the leader to tell him to stop.