Don't like Farage but..

[TheBlueKoala]

I do agree with him that foreign nationals shouldn't be able to claim benefits and to scrap PIP for mild mental health issues. And that the money saved should go into mental health care so that everyone with mild mental health problems can access NHS care rapidly.

Do you understand the Good Friday Agreement and how the ECHR is tied into it?

If I can just mention for those who think a European style insurance system might be better - ( I used to as well) this isn’t an odd£50 a month or so, in Germany it’s £380 a month (each ) - employer oays50% - we have a ton of smaller company’s who would get into real difficulties paying that out who aren’t at the level of being able to offset it against corporation tax etc - if you think a small employers NI increase was bad news, this would be way worse and I think put many smaller less well financed company’s under and it’s still a really big amount for a couple or single person to pay themselves with no guarantee of less tax/NI - Germany’s tax payment is still higher than here plus health on top-

on the benefits side, there do seem to be a lot of people getting PIP ( which isn’t income or assets related) - and for whom it’s not justified - personally I think there needs to be a big review and reassessment , particularly with mental health cases- it’s no good saying it’s really hard to get - too many know people somehow getting it who really have managed to pull the wool over the eyes and certainly can get by in life without it and see it’s nice little add on .this is an insult to people like the guy next door to me who died last year at 70 with secondary progressiveMS and needed both his wife caring plus carers in every day and really struggled to walk even with his walker . However I think Farage as usual is being disingenuous , by focussing on mental health he knows it’s something that pulls the right bells for many voters without frightening off a lot of his older voters many of who will be getting it but for physical ailments - and yep some of those from years ago look to be a bit ‘permanent bad back /gammy leg’ and strangely require no actual external help, which surely is partly what PIP is intended for - ?

Actually I really was being genuine. I wasn’t asking why politicians are anti it, I was asking why you are.
You said “Pretty sure you know what I and millions of others don’t like about the ECHR”
I honestly don’t know what you don’t like about the ECHR.
I asked a real question in the hope of understanding more.

Sorry that should have been 380 euros . There are some concessions if lower wages but it’s still pretty high- and you may well then be in a situation where low waged think they are better off not working - once again I think it will ve middle earners who are totally stuffed - some of his voters really need to be careful what they wish for, it would be very easy to end up with a US type situation however they try and call it and to not make it so would require a lot of public money subsidy - personally I think all rather pointless -

TRIGGER WARNING MH

someone quite far back on the thread said that psychiatrists/health professionals have the job now of assessing whether someone only has “mild” mental illness

Just to be clear I have never made a PIP. claim and would not have got enough points.
When I have seen professionals mentioned any level it was in relation to medical need. There were points when I had “mild” depression” when I had passive suicidal thoughts every day. My drs changed it to moderate depression when it moved to active thoughts and are attempted to kill myself. None of this was about the PIP functioning descriptors on eating, dressing etc. Those didn’t change for me.

So should just that single change mean I can’t get past it the minimum to complete a PIP form? or should it be as now, a different medical professional looking at the criteria and how well I function daily.

For me the main point is sovereignty. It is essential in an increasingly globalised world. I don’t want EU or US or any other group of politicians determining our laws. However there are multiple other opinions and views on the ECHR who believe there are many other important issues with membership. If you really want to know why there is a significant movement to leave the ECHR there is a treasure trove of information, articles and essays on line and from statements from Conservative and Reform politicians and media personalities and respected political commentators and pundits. All backed by detailed information and analyses. Why don’t you have a look.

I made a claim for adult disability payment - for both physical and mental health issues - I was seeing a psychiatrist but they weren't involved in my application. I didn't get the highest rate and I didn't expect to. But I just answered the questions and also gave them evidence of my medication and any fit notes plus the letter that said I was seeing a psychiatrist - I don't know if it's different in Scotland with adult disability payment but I don't think that my GPs were contacted. The evidence I submitted was enough - I don't know if it's different under the Pip system. Certainly when I tried to claim lcwra my doctors were contacted and refused to fill the form. They know I have mental health issues but they just aren't supportive

I'm not sure if that helps but the mild thing seems to be coming from Reform - they aren't in power yet. I would suggest that if you want to claim that you do so and maybe get help from welfare rights or CAB to fill the form in

You have the right to say that your mental health serious even if professionals don't agree

Look where? And please don't say 'google it'

Both Reform and Conservatives tie it to immigration/small boats

Also I assume you know that the E is for European and the UK's role in designing the bill?

If you're going to have a balanced debate about the ECHR then solely reading essays by those opposed to it is not going to give you that.

For me personally, I don't trust Nigel Farage and his kind not to strip out the protections that we do actually want to keep: the right not to be fired for getting pregnant, the right not to be refused a job because of the colour of our skin or our sexual orientation, all those good things.

And of course the Good Friday Agreement, which hinges on the ECHR. I quite enjoy peace in Northern Ireland.

Why wouldn’t I say google it. I’m not doing your research on other peoples views. I’ve given you mine. However there are probably other sources. Maybe visit the library.
Immigration and small boats is not the only concern in this debate. Is this something that you are concerned about?
The EHCR protocol was designed for a completely different world to the current one and its remit has broadened considerably since then.The fact that the UK had a principle role in its development is irrelevant and doesn’t mean we shouldn’t re consider our membership or try and change the current rules particularly if you value a country’s sovereignty.

These debates are usually centred around not liking the word 'European'

Back to do your own research, such a well thought out debate.

Any thought about the GFA?

I was merely pointing out where one might find the views of others on the benefits of leaving the EHCR as requested by the poster. There is also a lot of information available on why we should remain out there but I don’t think that’s what I was asked to comment on.
My main concern is sovereignty. However you are perfectly entitled to your views on other impacts. I believe sovereignty trumps other considerations.

Reform does not respect Kemi's decision to pull out of the ECHR as the Tories had 14 years to do so. The Tories also oversaw the markedly increased immigration to the UK. We cannot return people, arriving in boats, to other European countries any longer - because of Brexit.

Kemi and Nigel would have to perform the delicate task of renegotiating the Good Friday Agreement. Even though they do not feel capable of attempting to redefine aspects of the ECHR with our partners.

Again lots of material available on how important this is for the GFA. Lots of different views and a number of people involved in the original agreement have suggested that leaving the ECHR was unimportant while others suggested it would lead to mayhem on the streets.
Again I am not about to dredge up copious research on this to support either position. It’s not hard to find and as stated my main concern is around UK sovereignty.

You've signposted people to Reform and Conservative views on the human rights act. That's not really balanced in my view

Again The Dublin Agreement did not work. Tiny numbers were returned and the UK was a net recipient in most years.
The GFA is generally considered to be a red herring by many commentators. There is no prospect of violence returning as Ireland has no appetite for this and has many other more serious problems to deal with at the moment.

To point to other views. My concern is sovereignty so am not trying to be balanced on this. It’s not negotiable for me.

this is a bullshit line that people who don’t actually know often trot out. You always know someone who knows someone. Meanwhile those of us dealing with significant disabilities, or representing families with significant disability are going through years of appeal and to tribunal in order to get PIP and DLA. If you think it’s so easy to get for minor conditions then why do the majority of cases have to go to appeal? If it’s so quick and easy then why is the current wait time for a first application over 6 months, a year for appeal, and 2-3 years for tribunal?

its the same flannel sold under Brexit.
Vote to be poorer.
And then vote away rights because you believe you won’t be impacted.

You know what you are trying to do and you are not trying to understand anything.

It doesn’t anywhere, idk why it comes up when obviously other EU countries don’t use it to return more than a few people. Given the political pressure they would if the DA made it possible. The numbers are tiny due to criteria and the country receiving people having to say yes.

Keep forgetting to mention this point. Thanks

Thanks for responding. For me these "tiny numbers" are interesting. Whether we are discussing fraudulent health claims or challenges via Article 3, ECHR, we are being played by tiny numbers. A skilled manipulator like Nigel Farage knows how to goad with these "tiny numbers". It is crucial that we all think and find out for ourselves.

No problem. The only EU countries clamping down on migration are Poland and Hungary, that’s despite regulation by the bloc not due to it.