To raise my concerns about my brother’s parenting?

[childlessbutconcerned]

My brother has two children, under 5. He is, for the most part, a very good and hands on dad. Does a lot of housework, school runs, shares time off work when they’re sick 50/50.

But he has a very nasty angry streak that has come out over the last year or so. I’ve seen it before, long before he had kids, usually when drunk. He seemed to have calmed down after having his first child.

My husband and I are child free by choice (at least for now), so I feel kind of out of place to say anything. But I’ve noticed he gets incredibly angry with his children. The eldest was at my house the other day and when he picked them up, they wouldn’t hug me goodbye. I knew that they had had a good day, was happy to have spent the day with me, etc etc. he shouted at them to the point the child was sobbing and I had to just put them in the car and walk away because it was too upsetting and I was afraid that I would say something unforgivable, and it deteriorate into a horrible situation all together.

Today, they came over again. The youngest ran into the road when it was time to go home. He shouted at them, again to the point even my husband was scared.

This seems to be happening more frequently and it’s always over things children just do - not wanting to go home, not wanting to give a hug or a kiss, being generally a little bit annoying. But it’s getting to the point that I’m starting to get concerned for everyone’s safety. I don’t think he would ever do anything physical, but it’s obviously not something you can ever guarantee. I’m thinking of framing it in a “is everything okay, as I’ve noticed your temperament has changed” way, as opposed to “you’re far too angry” way, because I think that would just inflame tensions. But I also think, I have no idea what it’s like to have kids and the stresses parents are under, so it’s not my place to say anything. WIBU to say something?

This sounds worrying. You are describing a level of anger that makes other adults feel uncomfortable, so imagine how the children feel. I also worry if that's how he behaves in public, is it worse in private. That level of anger sounds like a loss of control.

Ideally yes you would bring it up with your brother, to try and raise his awareness. Also if it's a specific issue like no hugs (which is perfectly acceptable IMO), can you raise the topic when he is calm to try and agree a better way of dealing with it. This will be damaging for his kids, so if you can help him reduce his anger a bit, that would be a good thing for the kids.

I would pick your battles too and focus on the anger levels and him finding other ways to manage his irritation. I personally wouldn't threaten no TV for not putting shoes on, but everyone has a different approach, and this is where you are more likely to get a response of 'you don't know what it's like'.

This is such good advice.

Absolutely this, I’m glad someone said it.
no shoes- ok you might get sore or wet feet, get in the car
If baby doesn’t like the rain cover then obviously you just have to fight through the tears and hope they get used to it. If you’re talking about 2+ (or even 18m) then fine no raincover- you will get wet. My DD (now 4) sometimes refuses her coat when it’s wet, I take it with us, offer it once we are outside, if she still refuses she gets wet until she decides she would like to put it on.

Yes of course. That’s what happens if you don’t have the rain cover on, not sure what I’m missing there. Of course you keep offering it to them while your out.
No TV later is far too delayed for a toddler. Even my 4 year old would struggle with that- absolutely if the TV is on right now and she is misbehaving then TV off works but not delayed

I disagree with people saying if a child won't put on shoes/coat whatever let them learn the consequences. That might be fine if at home and it's the parent dealing with it, but when that child is then taken to school or nursery with no coat because they refused it's really frustrating as staff then have to find them something suitable. This is perhaps easier if nursery age, but I have seen some year 2 parents do this which is then harder to find a spare coat as we don't generally have those, especially in bigger sizes.

Anyway yes they do sound a bit OTT with some of their behaviour but do take into account you only see some of the behaviour. It sounds like you dote on the children so of course they are going to want to stay longer if it's something favourable to them, but they need to understand that time up means that. Maybe giving 5 min warnings before leaving would help, and that could be something you support the parents in doing. So when they say they are going to leave then say to the children ok 5 mins while we say bye to your parents and then you need to be ready to go.
Shouting for running into the road is not unusual (it's dangerous and they likely panicked).

A lot of kids don’t do hugs and kisses, and if they’re not comfortable with it they shouldn’t be forced to. We never did them in my family, I’d have hated it

Realistically, is your brother going to change his parenting after you talk to him?

I would phone NSPCC or similar straight away and ask for advice.
What you’re sharing is concerning. If it’s making the adults uncomfortable, it is crossing boundaries to abusive. People saying ‘oh I sometimes shout when they cross the road’, or ‘I give no tv as consequences’ are just projecting and missing the full picture of everything you shared. The initial reaction seems to be to go on defence - your brother will be the same and even more (as it will actually be directed at him specifically).

Please speak to a child safeguarding charity for proper advice to help these dc. And thank you for not ignoring it.

I’m not suggesting you don’t take the coat with them! Take it of course and offer it then there if they want to put it on but I wouldn’t insist they wear it

Your brother can't handle his own emotions and needs therapy.
Shouting like this is because he can't regulate himself so he offloads it onto his children.
He gets temporary relief, they get lifelong trauma.

Or not wanting to put their shoes on, just carry them out to the car. It just all seems like they expect them to never act out, but children do act out

I think this is where your inexperience is coming into play. Yes children act out but they need to be taught not to. If for no other reason than that the expectations and discipline they will experience at school will come as a huge shock if they don’t learn to follow instructions without kicking off.

And I think parents would probably yell at any child that was about to run into the road.

That’s not a criticism btw. You sound like a lovely aunty and caring sister.

It's not remotely normal to be yelling at a child who won't put their shoes on to the point where that child ends up in tears.

I'm not saying no decent parent has ever done it, but most would be ashamed afterwards. The OP indicates that this is part of a pattern that includes much worse things.

It's not her inexperience here.

I’d stay out of it, as I don’t think you understand parenting at all if you think letting a refusal to put shoes on should lead to the parent picking them up and putting them in the car.
On that statement alone, I suspect you’re misreading a lot of these situations, so keep schtum.

Sorry I thought the child was crying because they didn’t want to leave

I would ask him if everything is OK, go down that route, but be careful, try to keep him on side, and the wife too.

What you've described doesn't sound like a loving parent shouting occasionally to keep the children safe. It sounds like it could have a long term impact on the children's confidence.

I would leave the parenting out it and check in on him and how he is. Do they have enough support. What else is going on? Is he ok? “You seem different, less happy” is better than commenting on parenting- almost no one copes well with even a whiff of criticism of their parenting.

But might you babysit a little more often? Just a thought, in case it’s mutually beneficial. Not like that’s an answer - but we can start where we are maybe doing what we can?

It sounds like emotional abuse, not just brief shouting

That's sound awful, the poor children, as you say it seems that the parents expectations are unrealistic and will damage the children in the long term.
I would try to have a diplomatic word with your brother, is there a close family member who could speak to him and find out what's going on.

Fair enough, it’s been 20 years plus since I was parenting a toddler so things change.
In regards to this post though it isn’t and never has been okay to scream at toddlers continuously making them cry.

Sounds terrifying and very concerning. The poor kids are going yto be messed up growing up with that going on all the time. I think you should speak to him about it.

The videos are weird and unhinged, shouting at small children to the point a grown man is scared by it is completely inappropriate and abusive.

What they choose to correct and how they choose to correct it is their choice as parents, and I don't think it's remotely helpful for random people on MN to debate the rights and wrongs of this part, but if it crosses a line into abuse, then it's not OK at all. The shouting and the videos probably do cross a line and would upset/worry me in a similar way to if I had a relative who was hitting their children. I would actually wonder whether it's appropriate to show the videos to someone but I don't know who that would be.

He sounds like a bully. Poor children. YANBU.

No TV - fine. Walking without shoes - wet feet, learned lesson. Shouting at them until they cry and forcing them to send crying videos while crying to family? Outrageous and totally bullying behaviour. These poor children.

It sounds as though the children are being emotionally abused, which will be seriously damaging to their self esteem and sense of self worth. Please contact their school and social care to raise your concerns (there should be a reporting form on your local authority website).

The video thing is especially upsetting and looks like the parents want to be perceived as great parents by others -'look at the manners we are instilling in our children'...

Could you tackle it by saying you, as an adult, also find it upsetting/stressful when the children are shouted at and you don't want to be used as a reason for anger, 'you didn't hug aunty'... Does any of his behaviour mirror your own upbringing as children? I wonder if he saw herself played back ranting and shouting would it hit home.

You're missing the point.
Parenting is relentless.
Trying to get children to behave is such hard work.
You haven't got children so you don't understand this.