To raise my concerns about my brother’s parenting?

[childlessbutconcerned]

My brother has two children, under 5. He is, for the most part, a very good and hands on dad. Does a lot of housework, school runs, shares time off work when they’re sick 50/50.

But he has a very nasty angry streak that has come out over the last year or so. I’ve seen it before, long before he had kids, usually when drunk. He seemed to have calmed down after having his first child.

My husband and I are child free by choice (at least for now), so I feel kind of out of place to say anything. But I’ve noticed he gets incredibly angry with his children. The eldest was at my house the other day and when he picked them up, they wouldn’t hug me goodbye. I knew that they had had a good day, was happy to have spent the day with me, etc etc. he shouted at them to the point the child was sobbing and I had to just put them in the car and walk away because it was too upsetting and I was afraid that I would say something unforgivable, and it deteriorate into a horrible situation all together.

Today, they came over again. The youngest ran into the road when it was time to go home. He shouted at them, again to the point even my husband was scared.

This seems to be happening more frequently and it’s always over things children just do - not wanting to go home, not wanting to give a hug or a kiss, being generally a little bit annoying. But it’s getting to the point that I’m starting to get concerned for everyone’s safety. I don’t think he would ever do anything physical, but it’s obviously not something you can ever guarantee. I’m thinking of framing it in a “is everything okay, as I’ve noticed your temperament has changed” way, as opposed to “you’re far too angry” way, because I think that would just inflame tensions. But I also think, I have no idea what it’s like to have kids and the stresses parents are under, so it’s not my place to say anything. WIBU to say something?

I would speak to him away from the children and ask if he is ok. Maybe go down that route first so he doesn’t jump to defensive mode. You can try and explain how he his reactions seem disproportionate to what is happening.

No one should be forced to give hugs or kisses. It’s great to learn children about consent from a young age.

I would definitely have to say something as it must be such a sad environment for those children to be in.

It does sound abusive to me. Of course children need boundaries and parents can't give in to their every whim, but boundaries can be asserted gently and firmly. Threats of punishment aren't usually needed - a bit of patience and repeating expectations are what is usually needed. As for hugs etc, I think it's reasonable to expect a goodbye or thank you, but physical contact, like hugging or kissing, shouldn't be required if the child doesn't feel like doing it. As a child we were expected to kiss visiting relatives good night or goodbye (no hugs) and I remember finding that awkward.

You could raise it though it may go down badly, and I doubt you'll change his mindset. Maybe try approaching it sympathetically - that you're worried about him and how he's coping with parenting? Just because you're not a parent does not mean your point of view isn't valid, as some previous posters seem to think.

It's a difficult one. Shouting at a child for not giving someone a hug goodbye is definitely a red flag. But a young child running into the road needs a proper telling off! They could die and need to know it's completely unacceptable under any circumstances.

Puzzled as to why this is being minimised. Consistently shouting at young children so they get upset is certainly not normal or ok.

I am not a particularly gentle parent and agree there needs to be firmness and in rare scenarios (running into road extreme defiance) a parent may need to shout. But this should be very rare. This behaviour sounds next level to that. Very difficult to know what to do though. Agree with the “are you ok” approach rather than straight to criticising his parenting. Op sounds like a lovely aunt.

We had concerns that friends of ours were weirdly harsh with their new baby. The newborn was screaming with hunger and friends sat there looking at their watches as it wasn’t the correct time for a feed. DH cracked and actually said “I don’t think she can tell the time” which didn’t go down well but it was almost unbearable to be around.

Shouting when putting themselves in danger - not concerned. I’ve done the same.

The shoes thing - this makes it obvious you’re not a parent. It may be the millionth time they are giving their parents hell about shoes, it’s not a case of walking to the car as some PPs are saying, it may usually be a thing where they are refusing to get ready on time to go to nursery etc, making parents late for work and it’s incredibly infuriating. Can last well into school age and is a common issue highlighted by parents.

Shouting because no hug or kiss is the worrying one and yes you could use that specific example to raise with your brother. No one has to kiss anyone they don’t want to.

The videos and shouting due to refusing hugs and kisses is definitely abusive. I never force my kids to hug or kiss.

I don’t agree with you re running in the road, or about shoes and coat refusal. I’d shout at my kids too if they persistently refused these, and I have shouted about running in the road.

It’s all well and good to carry them to the car but what happens next time when you need to walk to nursery and they refuse shoes? Children won’t understand that sometimes they can choose not to wear shoes and other times they need to put them on, they need to learn to follow basic instructions from adults. Giving in even once about this sends mixed messages. You’re not a parent so wouldn’t understand.

Agree with this. When you come from a family like this its horrible as a child and even one relative saying something kind to you can make a lifetimes difference. Its abusive to always be on the end of this.

I think it sounds f##king horrible because your brother basically has an anger problem amd the kids are on the receiving end of it. If he's like this in public imahine ehat he's like in private. Those kids are already unhappy no doubt.

The wife, I dont know whether its normal toddler stress or not in her behaviour but shes standing by while the husband rants in anger daily at kids and lets it happen so shes enabling it.

Forget about being there for your brother - its his kids that need a supportive auntie now!

I agree! Wearing shoes to go on a walk = non-negotiable but we’re not battling over them to get into the car. It’s no big deal and you pick your battles especially if the kids are already overtired and overexcited.

OP, I think you should raise it - as a one off it’s perhaps explainable, but at the very least it sounds as if your brother could do with finding better ways to mange his stress levels and expressing his emotions under pressure (assuming he’s shouting because he’s stressed, rather than just an idiot).

I mean, I would expect all my children to out their shoes on and leave when told to without a fuss - at all ages.
And they would certainly have been shouted at for going into a road.
I think people without children that don’t work with children are possibly not the most qualified to comment on the expectations of children. I also think we all said we’d never shout at our kids before we had kids.

It's not ideal. But if the kids were really scared of him they'd likely behave better. And running into the road is definitely something worth shouting about.

By all means ask your brother if all is well but you do seem very judgemental.

Parenting by fear is a great way to raise kids with lifelong trauma. No child should be living in a household where they are scared of their main caregivers.

So many people minimising this behaviour. Those poor children, shouted at to the point of upset many times. Shouted at and terrified into an apology video for not wanting to hug or kiss people. This is absolutely not ok.

I’d say something. Screaming at small children is obviously not normal, okay or effective. I understand shouting out of fear when they ran into the road but what you’re describing is sustained yelling. Those poor kids – I’d be scared to be shouted at by a grown man so imagine how they feel.

How close are you to your brother? I would approach it in an “is everything ok” way and “can we offer some support”. Do they get much of a break from the kids? Most people i know (including myself) are much calmer, more reasonable parents when they’ve had time to themselves. If he’s just an angry person I’d still say something. If he’s like this in front of people what’s he like behind closed doors? I would be afraid of it escalating.

Being playful with small children is so much more effective when you want them to do something. I know this isn’t possible every time but forcing them into things usually just becomes a battle off wills with the adult frustrated and the child upset.

Agree with this, the replies on this thread are eye-opening! I have two under 5 and I’m not perfect but I can count on one hand the times I’ve raised my voice. It achieves fuck all. I had shouty parents and from very young I recognised it as a loss of control on their part.

I might not be a parent but I know that shouting and screaming at your children over shoes, to the point that the child is sobbing and hyperventilating, is not normal

I’d ignore previous poster, kids shouldn’t have to be scared of their parents, that’s a dangerous measure of whether they are behaving. You don’t sound judgmental op, you sound like your gut is telling you this is wrong. Aside from the running onto the road, it’s not ok to use shouting and other aggressive behaviour as your normal response to ordinary (but perhaps annoying) things that kids do. It’s absolutely 100% not ok to force kids to hug or kiss ANYONE. Your bother and his wife need to learn anger management and what is an appropriate way to manage difficult situations. We can’t be calm etc all the time because we’re human but it sounds like they don’t know any other way and that’s not fair on their kids. The kids are being shown how to behave so not really great role models either. Those poor kids must be growing up with seriously unregulated nervous systems and poor self image. Don’t be surprised if you see the evidence of this. It’s a tough position op but somebody needs to advocate for them. You seem to be second guessing yourself because you’re not a parent but you are a person who knows that this type of communication style is damaging so you’re qualified to talk about it.

I have 2 under 5 and I don’t think the behaviour OP is describing in relation to her brother is remotely normal. The kids on the other hand are behaving exactly as every young child I know (including mine) do.

edited to add : the exception is running into the road, that would warrant a shouting out of fear more than anything!

I'm not advocating parenting by fear (although I can see I didn't express myself clearly so apologies) I'm saying that children who are (for example) scared of their fathers tend to modify their behaviour in their presence. So it seems that the OPs nephews aren't scared of their father (this is a good thing). On the other hand this makes the shouting pointless.

You know your brother better than we do OP - if you feel there's been a change in his behaviour, I would go with your gut. The shouting and screaming you described is definitely not ok. You can try and open up conversations with him. Are the children in school or nursery?

Sorry with the shoes specifically i was more referring to your concern about ‘threats’ of no tv.

Yes do he may not realise how bad it is.also maybe offer to have the DC for a break and see how they are

No one on the thread was there except you. Some children sob and hyperventilate because they've been told no calmly. But if that's not what is happening here, you need to follow your gut.

The forced hugs and kisses and the apology videos sound absolutely vile. Perhaps address this with him if you're less sure about the other events.

Can you imagine the thread - I saw a woman in the pouring rain walking her child around in a buggy with no rain cover

MN - report to social services, thats a safeguarding matter

And then it becomes someone else's issue to sort? You arrive at nursery/school because child is soaking wet and say 'they didn't want to wear a coat today'. Do you then have the spare uniform if it's school to give them and expect them to help a little one change? Or do you just hope they have spare.
I think if this happened and I knew the parent was saying they didn't want to wear a coat I would be recording this as a concern, in case anything else came up in the future.

The thing is - it’s counter productive. If constantly shouting at your kids worked, then the kids would definitely put their shoes on quickly next time! But it doesn’t work and just creates more stress and upset all
round. I’ve definitely yelled before when a child has done something dangerous (running to edge of road/fingers in sockets etc) and it is really, really hard when you’re over worked, tired and grumpy, to not just be insanely annoyed at the kids mucking about.

Also, I don’t think you should ever force a child to hug or kiss someone they don’t want to. You can insist on politeness such as a wave or a fist bump but hugs and kisses shouldn’t be done under threat of punishment.

Growing up in a shouty house is really not healthy. It can turn kids into jumpy, passive adults who are afraid to ever speak up in case they ‘get into trouble’.

It’s hard to know what to do but if you have a good relationship with your brother you could say you’ve noticed that he gets really frustrated with the kids and is there any way you can support them?

The hugging/kissing thing bothers me. I don’t think children should ever have to hug or kiss if they don’t want to. We just say ‘ok just a wave goodbye then’ so it’s not rude etc.

Maybe you could just say ‘that’s fine they don’t have to if they don’t want to’ in that specific example.

i mean I hate shouting in any scenario and certainly don’t think it’s great/effective parenting for the kids. I think your suggestion of asking if everything is ok sounds like a good plan.