To raise my concerns about my brother’s parenting?

[childlessbutconcerned]

My brother has two children, under 5. He is, for the most part, a very good and hands on dad. Does a lot of housework, school runs, shares time off work when they’re sick 50/50.

But he has a very nasty angry streak that has come out over the last year or so. I’ve seen it before, long before he had kids, usually when drunk. He seemed to have calmed down after having his first child.

My husband and I are child free by choice (at least for now), so I feel kind of out of place to say anything. But I’ve noticed he gets incredibly angry with his children. The eldest was at my house the other day and when he picked them up, they wouldn’t hug me goodbye. I knew that they had had a good day, was happy to have spent the day with me, etc etc. he shouted at them to the point the child was sobbing and I had to just put them in the car and walk away because it was too upsetting and I was afraid that I would say something unforgivable, and it deteriorate into a horrible situation all together.

Today, they came over again. The youngest ran into the road when it was time to go home. He shouted at them, again to the point even my husband was scared.

This seems to be happening more frequently and it’s always over things children just do - not wanting to go home, not wanting to give a hug or a kiss, being generally a little bit annoying. But it’s getting to the point that I’m starting to get concerned for everyone’s safety. I don’t think he would ever do anything physical, but it’s obviously not something you can ever guarantee. I’m thinking of framing it in a “is everything okay, as I’ve noticed your temperament has changed” way, as opposed to “you’re far too angry” way, because I think that would just inflame tensions. But I also think, I have no idea what it’s like to have kids and the stresses parents are under, so it’s not my place to say anything. WIBU to say something?

How do you think he will respond to being asked about it?

What does his partner do when this is going on?

I’d like to hope we have a good enough relationship for him to be honest with me if something is bothering him.

She is also pretty hard on the kids. Not to the same extent as him (she doesn’t yell as much), but she also has what I believe to be pretty unrealistic expectations of them. For example today the eldest didn’t want to leave our house because they were having fun, so she started to make threats of no TV time etc. so she’ll usually say “yes X it’s very rude not to hug Aunty Childless goodbye”, but not yelling.

I really can’t see any issue with what the mum is doing in your example. Even 4 year olds need to learn not listening will mean consequences. Saying no TV time sounds like a normal threat of punishment.

The shouting could be OTT, but I know I’ve shouted at my kids, particularly in high stress situations like if they have run out into the road. You might not consider an occasion stressful but a worn out parent of 2 under 5 will likely be permanently at the end of their tether. That’s not to say shouting is fine (it’s pointless and doesn’t work), but we’re human and all over react sometimes. Raising it depends on what you want the outcome to be. And risk pissing off your brother to the point the relationship ends. But if you feel the children are in danger, then yes you should say something, perhaps to his wife or your other family members.

I just feel they have very, very high expectations of their children. For example, not wanting to leave our house results in an argument that ends up with the child in tears. Or not wanting to put their shoes on, just carry them out to the car. It just all seems like they expect them to never act out, but children do act out.

The shouting and screaming isn’t great but without being there it’s impossible to judge if it’s concerning. If you are worried for your niece and nephews wellbeing of course you should address that.
I would say though that no TV as a consequence is a normal reaction and carrying a child instead of insisting that they wear shoes is silly, it’s extremely boring and draining having these little battles with toddlers but they do have to learn. My son used to go absolutely ape shit if I put the rain cover over his pushchair, what should I have done, only go out when it was sunny?

It’s very hard to judge these things from the outside. When my kids were small, there were people who might have regarded me as snippy/shouty/cross - but then I regarded them as far too laissez faire/ineffectual. So - to a point - these things can be horses for courses. I think I’d see if a pattern emerges - that’s an easier thing to point to if you want to raise the issue directly with him.

I just feel like it’s a case of picking and choosing your battles. Is it really worth screaming at your child, upsetting them and then having to deal with that the whole car journey home? It just feels very over the top to me, for very minor things.

Just responding to this comment alone.

You only see the one time that day they have refused to put their shoes on. You realise that with a lot of kids almost everything is battle? That might be the 10th time she’s been ignored that day. It’s incredibly hard to parent young children so give her some slack.

Honestly the shouting when they ran into the road doesn’t particularly worry me at all, I am not a shouty parent- can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I have raised my voice at my 4 year old. However atleast 1 of those was a similar incident of running into a road- I shouted out of fear that she was going to get hurt. Also that’s so dangerous that really wanting to get the point across is understandable (although debatably if shouting does that).
Shouting at them for not wanting to hug and kiss really gets my back up, I hated giving hugs and kisses as a child and on leaving a relatives it was always expected of me (although I don’t remember anyone shouting) and that has only put me off more. Children should be in charge of who and when they want to give hugs and kisses to.
I do wonder though if he is a bit embarrassed and thinks you will judge him for them being rude? Maybe a text when everyone is calm (about an hour after bedtime in my house!) to say ‘please don’t worry if they don’t want to say goodbye and thank you, I know it’s because they have really enjoyed themselves, so I see it as a compliment’ or similar.
but yes if your relationship is close enough no harm in asking if he is ok, noting he seems more stressed than usual and is there anything you can do to help.

He shouts at the kids for not wanting to hug or kiss ? That's messed up. I think your brother has emotional problems. Sometimes depression can translate into being snappy with children. I would take that angle if you raise it, that you are concerned about his mental health

This has been going on for a number of years, everyone in the family has made it clear to them that we don’t think it’s rude - but it happens every time. There was another, very upsetting incident, where we’d had a big family dinner and the kids didn’t do what the parents wanted. They got home and made their crying children send apology videos to each family member, basically along the lines of “I’m very sorry, I’m a naughty boy and I do love you”, which was just way too far imo.

I do get that but it’s also not really a big deal. They’ll learn eventually that they need to wear shoes.

Insisting that children put shoes on to walk to a car.. Absolutely fine and they need to learn. You need to look at the bigger picture here, it’s essential stuff that like I said is boring,draining but just a part of parenting.
Screaming at children who don’t want to put shoes on until they’re crying, not okay. It’s really hard to say if it’s concerning enough to step in, is it just normal telling off that you’ve witnessed with other children before in supermarkets ect or are you worried that it’s more than what would be deemed a bit over the top.

To me it feels very over the top. Like it’s genuine anger, he yells and rants about how they’re so naughty, they’re disrespectful etc etc.

I think this sounds terrifying TBH. Especially the bit about yelling at a child for not hugging you or telling that child it's rude not to give you a hug, let alone the videos.

I honestly don't know how it would go down if you were to say anything, but I think morally you should. Poor children.

I will say, I have parents who were badly out of line and no one said anything. I found out later on that various family members had been noticing and discussing it between themselves, but as a child I thought it was all normal and we were the ones who were being naughty. It could mean a huge amount to these children even to see a small indication that some adults do not think their parents are entitled to behave like that towards them.

Occasionally raising your voice at your kid/s is normal but what you are describing sounds like adults are not coping and normalising offloading into their (powerless) kids
on Mn you’ll find a lot of people who shout at their kids will also shout at others on threads like this to say it’s fine

persistent shouting is abusive and harmful . If you think you can challenge them then do it.

“Childhood verbal abuse desperately needs to be acknowledged as an abuse subtype, because of the lifelong negative consequences”

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/oct/calls-verbal-abuse-children-adults-be-formally-recognised-form-child-maltreatment

Then raise it, either with them directly or indirectly using family or a nursery safeguarding team or similar.
I was abused in lots of ways as a child and it still pisses me off that nobody in my wider family stepped in and raised their concerns.

Shouting about running in to the road isn't the best way to manage things but it is understandable. The fear and anxiety when your child puts themselves in danger like that can lead to panicked shouting and/or really wanting to drill in how dangerous it was.
Getting in trouble for not giving hugs and kisses is not okay. I don't even agree with a gentle telling off, aggresive shouting is a definite no, I can't see how that situation could cause so much stress.
In your situation I'd be inclined to speak to the mum, gently ask her how things are at home. Lightly say DB had quite the nasty streak growing up. I'd judge her reaction to that to decide where to go next.

Shouting for running the road I understand as it’s an immediate panicked response. Shouting fkr not hugging or kissing is awful though, they are teaching a really bad message about consent. My children know they never have to hug or kiss anyone, not even us. It sounds like verbal abuse to me and like the parents have unrealistic expectations of young children but it’s so tricky to know what to do. Why not start with the hug / kiss issue and make it very clear it’s fine to not hug / kiss you? And say that to the parents? Of course every parent gets angry or shouts occasionally but this sounds sustained and ingrained in this family, it just breaks my heart.

You’re right - and im a parent- who cares if they wear shoes. Theyre getting in the car.

No, they get wet and thats a consequence so they learn for next time. No tv isnt a consequence.

Oh my goodness this sounds horrible. I would 100% have a word. This is verbal abuse.
also forcing children to touch or hug people against their will is teaching them they’ve no bodily autonomy, that they cannot refuse consent. Shouting at them about this is especially appalling. I would never make my three children hug anyone.
you sound like a lovely auntie and I’m sure you’ll continue to look out for them. And your brother.

What.. You’d let a toddler get wet to teach them the lesson?
And why is not being allowed to watch tv a consequence, my son is an adult now but he liked watching cartoons, if I took them away as a consequence he learnt he didn’t like that.

I think these children may need help, the videos you mention are the most concerning and I would definitely speak to your brother and call nspcc for some advice. Their treatment of their children dosen’t sound normal.

Shouting when a kid runs in the road could be normal - I can imagine doing that, but would then apologize and explain I did so because it was dangerous and frightening.

The other stuff violates boundaries - hug or be shouted at?! - and in other ways is frightening and unpleasant.

Yes have a word if you can. Can you offer anymore practical support - having the kids so the parents can get some rest, or whatever.