To ponder legal action for being slapped on the arse

[IneedAniffler]

Very long story short, I work in an unregulated industry as a self-employed contractor. I provide a professional service in what can be quite a high-pressure environment, and I take a lot of pride in what I do.

Today, just before I was due to deliver a service, another person working there (in a separate but related role) slapped me hard on the backside. He clearly thought it was “banter” or playful, but I was completely shocked.

I reacted immediately and told him in no uncertain terms that it was unacceptable and that he must never do anything like that again. He apologised straight away, and the contractor (who works with both of us) also apologised, as did others present.

The issue is that I then had to go straight on and deliver a half-hour professional service as if nothing had happened, and then go straight to another client meeting. I didn’t really have time to process it at all.

Now I’m home, it’s all hit me properly and I feel incredibly upset. I feel violated, embarrassed, angry, and quite shaken. I also feel a bit stupid even writing this, because technically everyone has apologised and it’s “dealt with”, but it doesn’t feel dealt with to me at all.

There’s no HR in this situation as I’m self-employed, and this isn’t a traditional workplace. I’m just trying to work out whether I’m overreacting, and what (if anything) I should do next.

WWYD?

I am so sorry you have to put up with that shit. The lads I work with would never behave like that. The bearer team is 55 to 70 year old and in all honesty can be a bit 'laddish' on our own. But never in a million years would such behaviour be seen outside of the team

We are also incredibly vile to each other taking the mick mercilessly. But again there's a unspoken line that doesn't get crossed.

The fact this guy did it to the boss of the business is indicative of what a vile human he is.

I do hope you report it. Given it's likely he gets a police visit and his wife/neighbours are likely to find out. I also hope the FD gives him the sack.

I don't understand this post. How can you possibly know they're not laddish with others when you're not present 24/7 with them?

You're incredibly vile to each other but there's an unspoken line that doesn't get crossed? Is this true or it's just not been crossed yet?

How is the fact that he did it to the boss's wife in particular as opposed to anybody else indicative of what a vile human he is? Is it somehow unacceptable because she's higher up the chain of command?

I may have disagreed with others here but this is about the only post that has left me really confused.

It's also incidentally why I stopped engaging in banter with men years ago.

Cause at some point I've realised that our idea of what is or is not acceptable as 'banter' does not match.

OP, I have been following this thread and you have my total respect for the calm, rational and sensible way you are approaching the situation. I was a barrister in the 1980's and had to deal with a lot of sexist rubbish but nobody ever assaulted me but, even then; if they had done so I would have taken it further.

The context makes it far worse, as does the fact that he has done it before. You are a woman of dignity who was doing a very important job. A lesser person would not have proceeded with the ceremony and you have my admiration that you did so.

I agree with those who say that you should report it, the police will take you seriously as a highly credible witness. No need to broadcast what you have done publicly, just report privately and calmly then leave it to the police. You owe it to yourself, his past victims and any future victims to do so.

True I don't know they aren't vile to virtual strangers when alone. But given some of the serious conversations we have had I doubt they would be.

The line has been approached and shut down by everyone present...ie joke about someone's mum

The wife of the FD would be someone who a) he knows better than a celebrant and b) he works for her/her husband so jeopardising his job and c) the potential of actual violence or other repercussions from her husband who will know where he lives

I understand why you don't banter with men.... given that a fair number see it as a green light. But many of us see it as just fun. In fact the best come back I ever heard from anyone was a woman I worked with who bantered with me a lot. She said something smutty so I asked "is there anything that doesn't make you think of sex" "yes...you".... brilliant funny and quick

I do apologise I don't know why I didn't pick up on this before but you're a man.
Is this correct?

This thread prompted me to look online about my assertion as to whether or not this incident could have been intended as humorous as opposed to sexual.
I knew that it might very well be but needed proof of the culture of the day.
(What the law regards this as is a separate issue. I don't want to discuss this again here. Nor do I want to discuss the impact it has on the receiver of the slap. Those are two separate issues.
I get that impact is different from intent.)

Indeed, The Benny Hill show featured this bottom slap as humour.
It is therefore totally plausible that a man aged around 55-70 could intend it as humorous given that he grew up with this stuff.

Yet you post on this thread asserting with such confidence that the men of this age that you work with would never do this in spite of the fact they were utterly immersed in this culture when young, are far, far from politically correct and that you make smutty jokes - which could very much be viewed as deeply offensive (asking about a woman's sex life ffs).

I still don't get your comment about the FD's wife by the way. You assert that by bottom slapping the boss's wife he is risking serious repercussions for himself.
So given that sexual predators pick on who they can get away with, does this also not support the idea this act was carried out for humour and not sexual thrill?

It seems to me that this post is to puff up yourself and your friends as model examples of male behaviour but when scrutinised it does the opposite.

@NotAnotherScarf. I don't banter with men anymore because their idea of what is funny may not match mine.

I advise you to do the same with women.
Because, who knows, something you may mean as funny could be viewed as deeply offensive to the woman you say it to and they post here about you being a pervert.
Not worth it.

I was slapped on the arse by a female colleague when I bent over to get something. It was really hard and it hurt! I was furious. Should have reported it but didn’t. She said words to the effect of ‘It was just too tempting’ but yes, from a woman, it’s still demeaning and a horrible experience.
Also many people have said ‘Oh he apologised’ but OP did you feel it was genuine or just because it was called out?

No I don't intend to puff up myself and the guys I work with. If you read my earlier posts I am totally shocked by his actions. Disgusted in fact.

The banter example was to illustrate that it is possible to banter with members of the opposite sex. The woman in question, if you re-read it has said something smutty and I questioned her view on life..
The benny hill view of life isn't shared by most men. It was seen as an extreme outlandish piece of humour even then. I think men realise that things have changed since then.

Yes we are laddish when it's just us men. But having had close female friends all my life and having at times been accepted as 'one of the girls ' I know women can also be crude and extremely un pc.

OK let me preface this by saying that impact is different from intent and you've every right to feel as you did.

As a woman, though, I would not slap a man's bottom unless I meant it as humorous and felt that he'd see at as funny too.
Not that I ever do it, I'm just explaining the only circumstance I'd imagine I'd do do this.

There's only 4 possible outcomes:

He'd see it as the joke I'd intended it to be.

He shrugged it off.

He saw it as a come-on and reciprocate which I would not want.

He got deeply offended and as he is a man if he did he may react negatively reflexively and hit me back.
And/or report my actions and get me into trouble.
He is likely to be able to hurt me physically more than I'd hurt him.
It would be like a deer poking a lion.

I say none of this is to negate the impact it had on you, though, please understand that.

Look you do you as they say these days.
I stand by my statement that any man who has sexual banter with any woman is being foolish.

You can of course say here what you're like as a person and that may be true, but the way in which you assert that the other men you know would never do this is both irritating and factually untrue as you are not with them 24/7.

I agree..

You are not over reacting. If there are no consequences this person will continue doing things like this.. and it will escalate.

The fact that the witnesses were also shocked and immediately apologised mean it must have been very notable. You said he hit you very hard.. that cannot be passed off as just a joke.

People who do things like this try it on bit by bit..a putdown here, an insult there and if they get away with one thing.. and move on to step it up.
It was done in front of others to humiliate you and make him look like the Big I Am, and then passed off as a joke on the hope that others would link it was funny ( which is really just asking for others to encourage him to keep on in this line of behaviour)

I would get RL advice in nothing else.

At the very least, you are not a "troublemaker" if you report it to the company who contracted you... They need to know that this person is behaving that way. you are doing them a service as they have a duty to provide a safe environment. and that costs nothing.
Whatr's the alternative, say nothing, feel terrible and keep putting up with it? It's fear that allows people to get away with this crap and its inaction and seeing it happen again allows others to think this behaviour is OK and will generally be tolerated. Watch that become an ingrained culture.

No I'm not sure they wouldn't. But I am confident they wouldn't.

I actually worked a funeral today and talked to the director and one of the lads working who's parents own the company... anyone who did that would be sacked on the spot. Instantly.

Perhaps any man bantering with a woman is foolish...but given I'm 57 work for the company just because I've had a job since I was 7, have always had close female friends, it doesn't really matter if I do.... What's the worst that could happen I get accused of being a pig...I once got accused of being a Bristol city fan...I'm never alone with a woman who isn't my wife or my family so...

My view would be unchanged. I think it’s really disturbing that anybody would think this type of behaviour is ok.

What was the outcome @IneedAniffler?

I do hope it was satisfactory for you.

Hi all,

Firstly, thank you so much to everyone who took the time to reply. I genuinely appreciated all the advice, support and encouragement.

In the end, I reached out to my celebrant training provider, who are wonderful. They advised me to seek counsel from people within the industry that I trust before deciding what to do.

Disappointingly, the consistent message I received was that my reputation would be at stake if I made too much of a fuss. I found that incredibly frustrating, because it wasn't my behaviour that was in question.

I then spoke to a funeral director I work with a great deal, and he was fantastic. He explained he'd never used this particular bearer because he'd always thought he was problematic and, in his words, predatory. Hearing that actually reassured me that I hadn't imagined how serious the situation was. He immediately offered to ring around the funeral directors he works with, including the company I was working with that day, and fight my corner. I thanked him but said I'd rather do my own legwork.

I then spoke to another female funeral director directly associated with the company involved. She also advised me not to make too much of a fuss. However, when she conducted a funeral the following day, every single bearer was apparently afraid to even shake my hand because they'd all been given such a bollocking about touching celebrants. That, at least, showed me the message had landed.

The bearer in question no longer works for any of the companies involved. A couple of funeral directors have even stepped in to act as bearers themselves on ceremonies where I'm officiating, which I thought spoke volumes.

Looking back, I think the concerns people expressed about my reputation were genuine. Funeral directing is a profession where adaptability, professionalism and resilience are highly valued. However, what saddened me was how often the fear of speaking up was underlined. That, in my view, isn't okay.

I've decided that I won't keep quiet about what happened. If anyone asks me, I'll tell them honestly. And if I ever come into contact with him again, I'll ask him directly why he thought it was appropriate to touch another person inappropriately at all, under any circumstances. I genuinely cannot understand what could possibly have made him think that was acceptable.

As far as I'm aware, he isn't working in that role anymore. I decided not to pursue the matter with the police, as I didn't feel that was the right path for me.

Interestingly, this incident seems to have been a turning point within the circles I work in. The crematorium manager and staff have, as far as I'm aware, taken steps to ensure he isn't engaged around me again where possible, and the funeral directors involved have been very supportive since. Far from damaging my reputation, I've actually had a huge influx of work from those companies. If anything, I think it's demonstrated that I have high professional standards and that I'm not prepared to accept unprofessional behaviour.

So, although it was an upsetting experience, there has been a positive outcome.

Thank you all again for checking in and for the kindness you showed a complete stranger. The support and camaraderie on this thread have been wonderful, and this is exactly what Mumsnet is all about.

Thank you for the update @IneedAniffler
So glad you are getting lots of work.

Well managed OP