To think being angry works

[sallover]

I have two kids (2 and 5.) I’ve read the books and what you’re supposed to do to deal with poor behaviour or habits and I was doing it.

And it wasn’t effective in the slightest.

So for instance my five year old pees all over the place when he goes to the toilet. For well over a year now I’ve been consistent and made him go back and clean it. It’s been hugely disruptive because he often argues and refuses so then deal with that but calmly made him clean it.

And then I lost it with him at the start of the holiday. I properly yelled at him for quite a while and made him cry; told him it was disgusting, dirty and unpleasant for others. And he hasnt done it since.

We had it again this morning where he was getting frustrated with a toy. At first I sympathised and helped but he just kept roaring and screaming. So I told him he could either stop and play calmly or I’d remove it because it was unpleasant for everyone else to listen to screaming.

No doubt someone will ask why I posted on AIBU because I don’t think I’m being unreasonable and it isn’t quite as simple as that. I don’t want to be a horrible shouty mum they are scared of. Equally though I don’t want them running rings round me and it did feel like they were tbh. (The stern / firm voice never worked either before anyone suggests that.)

I’m all for respect, letting them learn, encouragement, positive reinforcement etc etc but this “gentle parenting” craze is a crock of shit and creating an entire generation of young people with no resilience, boundaries, respect or common sense.

So while I don’t support regularly screaming at your kids, fuck sakes sometimes they need to be told.

I think while shouting and yelling might work in the moment, it's not a good discipline strategy long term. You're teaching your child how to behave and they will emulate your behaviour so you want to model the behaviour you want to see. If you control your children's behaviour through instilling fear, what does that teach them? If you are angry and yelling, you've lost your temper and you're no longer in control of the situation or your emotions. There's no other situation as an adult where it's acceptable to lose your rag and scream and yell at someone so why is it acceptable to do that to a small child? How do you think it feels to a small child to have a much larger person standing over them shouting and yelling?

You know your own child and some behaviour isn't negotiable in the way that safety issues aren't negotiable.In saying that I'd really prefer not to shout at anyone especially my children if it can be avoided.

Yes. That’s the kind of ‘standard’ response and it looks totally reasonable. But on an actual daily basis it doesn’t match reality. I mean you say ‘what does that teach them’ but it does seem to have taught ds he can’t pee all over the toilet seat!

Yes. That’s the kind of ‘standard’ response and it looks totally reasonable. But on an actual daily basis it doesn’t match reality. I mean you say ‘what does that teach them’ but it does seem to have taught ds he can’t pee all over the toilet seat!

I thought this too but I’m starting to believe that it’s bollocks. We’re in an utter mess with these kids now.

I shouted at my five. If I hadn't, absolutely NOTHING would have been done. They could blank me like pros. I was a single mum and they outnumbered me and could just flatly refuse to do anything to help.

Which drove me to regularly lose my rag. I wasn't ALWAYS shouting, and we had a lot of very good times (they are now all adult and look back very fondly on their, largely outdoor, rural upbringing). But I did have to yell and get very very angry on occasion. That was when they would usually realise that they'd gone too far and things would improve. For a while.

So I don't think it does kids any harm at all to know that parents are human and can only be pushed so far before they give out. It's how life is, after all.

They all grew up to be normal, productive home owners who seem to be fond of me and don't bear me any ill will for my rages.

No, sometimes kids need told. You've tried the calm way and come to the end of your tether.

Don't make a habit of it though.

The two examples you gave are slightly different.
In the first, you effectively shamed him (I get you lost it, we all do). But you shouldn’t make this a habit as it could be damaging.
the way you describe the second event (ie if you don’t play with this calmly then I will remove it) is completely fair imo- you were clear and fair.

I agree with PPs that some gentle parenting has gone way too far. I think children need you to be kind but also calm, firm and fair and all of this needs to be consistent.

I don't shout regularly but when all else fails I will. It does shock them and they do change their behaviour.

Re the weeing/missing the loo. I assume at 5 it's a control thing. Lots of 5 year olds are still sitting to wee.

You need a bit of both- not shouty, out of control ranting, but allowing your emotions to show.
It’s ok to say- That’s disgusting and stinks! Stop making that mess- here you go, clear it up!

And add in practical things to encourage compliance- a ping pong ball gives them something to focus on so they make less mess.

You’re not going mad! Kids need boundaries and to know there is authority. Gentle parenting and lack of trust in other adults means they test and push more than ever. When I was a kid if a neighbour told my parents I was misbehaving, my parents believed them. Now, kids know that they can push and push and there’s no consequence. You showed a consequence and it worked. Keep making him clean it too!

Sorry, crap signal.

I don’t want them being scared of me (and I’ve never stood over them btw) but I do have to say that no matter how much sense some strategies seem to make when you read them in books or on here they often don’t work in practice.

@NewyearNC they are I suppose … I don’t want to shame ds but I think he’s been using the toilet (as opposed to the potty) for nearly 2 years now and there were no signs of improvement with the pee situation and it really was incredibly disruptive because it wasn’t like he’d just go back and clean it cheerfully, it was with ill grace, refusal / arguing and then finally mulish sort of concession. Then again two hours later 😩

I think with the second example I was pointing out his behaviour was impacting me and others in the house. He’s allowed to be frustrated but not to scream and bellow the place down like a young bullock or something!

Well I managed to raise 5 boys to be well adjusted adults without the need to be shouting and yelling all the time! All parents shout occasionally but that's usually when they're tired, frazzled and at the end of their tether. Shouting and yelling as a daily thing is just abuse - if your partner shouted and yelled at you when you did something they deemed wrong, you'd call it abuse 🤷‍♀️

@sallover yep totally get it. you have more patience than I would have!
I think the point you’ve proven is actually that you lose it so infrequently then when you pull out the big guns then he will listen.

It isn’t all the time but I’ve definitely come to realise I need to be a lot firmer and for my children that does sometimes mean getting angry. All children are different of course.

You are teaching him that shouting and screaming is an effective behaviour. That is what he will do as he grows up.

In your first scenario, there is too much going on between the action and the sanction for him to relate having to clean the bathroom after careless weeing - you say it leads to arguments - so no doubt you losing your rag - before he would clean the seat/floor. So he does it when you shout out of fear. That is already the behaviour pattern you have taught him. That he doesn't need to act until you get angry. I wonder if you ever tried rewarding him - or even just praising him - when he has left the bathroom clean?

As for your second scenario with the toy; offering a choice (play nicely or I will take it away) can be done very calmly with a simple explanation why his mode of play needs to change. It does not need shouting. The anger is completely unnecessary and damaging for him.

I don’t believe it’s fear for a second. Certainly for my girls (who can be a pair of lazy toads when they want to be), it’s oh shit, mums off on one and I’m about to lose
my phone/iPad/switch for the weekend if I don’t comply”. So perhaps a fear of consequences…which is the whole point of consequences, is it not?

I don't think shouting automatically induces fear? It depends on how and what the person is shouting. Sometimes shouting is just communicating something forcefully. I don't remember always being scared when my mum shouted at me, sometimes it just made me understand she meant what she was saying. And then there were other occasions when it was a bit scary and I knew I'd crossed a serious line. That's the kind of shouting you have to be careful with.

I don’t want to raise my daughters to be obedient to whoever shouts at and intimidates them. I think modelling the behaviour you want to see, being quick to praise good behaviours and actively working on developing empathy and pride are more effective at building an internalised drive to do well.

My 4.5 year old has never been shouted at once in her entire life. She certainly had a challenging toddler stage but we just remained calm, completely consistent and gently held boundaries, and she is turning into a great kid. She’s kind and gentle with other kids (often borrowing the warm language we use to speak to her), she’s good at sharing, she accepts when we say no (as we say yes as often as we can, unless there is a good reason not to, so when it’s a no she knows we really mean it). She certainly has a stubborn streak and can be a wee monkey at times, but overall she’s a lovely wee girl (as we so often tell her). I’ve no doubt inborn temperament will be part of this (although she was a difficult toddler), but clearly a gentle parenting approach and complete lack of any shouting or shaming has not done any harm.

I shout at mine about once every 9 months and when it happens they listen but I would hate for it to be a regular occurrence

I mean. My girls were angels at 4.5 too and I thought I’d won a watch.

They are still good girls at 8 and 10. They are angelic outside of the house. Polite. Tidy. Kind. Easy going. I get many compliments on their immaculate behaviour.

But they aren’t like that in the house. In their safe space. They are lazy. They are messy. They can be rude/cheeky. They love their screen time so that’s a battle in itself. My ten year old is having some wonderful hormone-induced “episodes” right now where she throws herself to the floor in tears if I suggest she picks up her dirty washing. Yes, calm consistent etc but do you know what? Sometimes it’s really hard when you ask them to do something over and over again and they ignore you or give you a mouthful of crap back.

No child is perfect. It’s easy when they are small and malleable and are happy to trot along beside you. Not so much when they are old enough to have their own views and opinions about what they want to do with their time.

I properly yelled at him for quite a while and made him cry This is emotional abuse. The child is 5.