To think being angry works

[sallover]

I have two kids (2 and 5.) I’ve read the books and what you’re supposed to do to deal with poor behaviour or habits and I was doing it.

And it wasn’t effective in the slightest.

So for instance my five year old pees all over the place when he goes to the toilet. For well over a year now I’ve been consistent and made him go back and clean it. It’s been hugely disruptive because he often argues and refuses so then deal with that but calmly made him clean it.

And then I lost it with him at the start of the holiday. I properly yelled at him for quite a while and made him cry; told him it was disgusting, dirty and unpleasant for others. And he hasnt done it since.

We had it again this morning where he was getting frustrated with a toy. At first I sympathised and helped but he just kept roaring and screaming. So I told him he could either stop and play calmly or I’d remove it because it was unpleasant for everyone else to listen to screaming.

No doubt someone will ask why I posted on AIBU because I don’t think I’m being unreasonable and it isn’t quite as simple as that. I don’t want to be a horrible shouty mum they are scared of. Equally though I don’t want them running rings round me and it did feel like they were tbh. (The stern / firm voice never worked either before anyone suggests that.)

Making your child cry increased the stress for him significantly.

I wish your family all the best and I do hope you can access some parenting support soon.

Yes I agree, and that's what OP has been saying all along
My eldest is almost an adult and has 'coped' with an occasional mum rant when one or both of them wasn't listening
We are close, he is sensible (now) and isn't traumatised! Such bollocks being spouted in this thread! And yes I work with children so get to see the whole range of parenting styles. If anything, he is proud of his sensible and responsible behaviour (not that we get any credit for bringing him up lol)
If you have children who's personality suits gentle parenting, and that works for you, well done, good for you, get on with it.
If you have future human rights lawyers as children, gentle parenting won't work at all, cos they are hard as f*ck and stubborn as hell. Nothing, no consequences, no removal of items, no 'we are going home' worked with my DD. She would stare me down with a 'just you dare' face. Again, we're really close now, and she is secure and well adjusted (esp compared to other girls at her school tbh).
Abuse would be constant shouting, constant fear, trauma responses. Not finally peeing in the bowl instead of all over the place!
Well done OP

No, no, no. Offer lots of consistent and excessive praise for things you want them to do. Not just that was good but some sort of treat or make a really big deal of it in a good way. I successfully potty trained in 14 days by a system where for every no.2 done on the potty they got a character or vehicle from octonauts (in small toy form). I already had the whole set in preparation. Generally ignore the bad, unless it’s a violence/safety matter. I’m not against shouting on occasion but long term reinforcing the positives really is preferable.

Of course it'll help correct their behaviour, because it'll cause fear. It's what it does to their brain you need to worry about. Kids become what we tell them they are. Negative words stay with us far more than the positive.
I'm not saying i don't do it either, I do and I feel a lot of guilt for it.
But yea, it works, but it might come at a cost

@KookyKoala007 Every family is different huh. Both my kids potty trained in a weekend with no additional bribes as we largely avoid the idea that you get rewards for basic things, as well as plastic for environmental reasons. Know of some people who did elimination communication from birth and others who took annual leave to potty train over a week or two. It's likely some of those families would have also shouted occasionally. We're all different.

My parents sometimes shouted and whacked me. Their temper was unpredictable and I could get shouted at at any time.

The result was I did what they said. But I also didn’t confide in them, didn’t feel close to them and am not close to them now as adults. Is that what you want OP?

@Catsandcwtches a child psychologist I know says unpredictability is the absolute worst thing for children. If you always react in anger (not advocating that as a method) it's actually better than uncertainty.

Sorry you went through that.

However I don't get the impression that's what the OP is saying at all. What she's describing is escalation. The child has been asked nicely, had the reasons explained to them, been made to deal with a natural consequence (cleaning up the mess), seen mummy exasperated and frustrated, now after many many many occurrences of the same behaviour the OP has raised her voice/shouted and noticed that that has been more effective than any of the previous attempts to dispense with the behaviour. It's frustrating when you're trying overwhelmingly hard to make the better choices (ie not shouting) then to get the results you want (in this case no more urine on the floor) from the behaviour you've been trying really hard to avoid!

Also @sallover just an idea which has worked in my house (if the behaviour returns). If people can't use the toilet tidily then they're not yet big enough for stand up wees. Amazing how motivating it is for a little boy to suddenly make an effort to be more careful if you take away a fun/grown up element of going to the loo and make them sit down for the entire event instead!

The language of ‘bribes’ is very unhelpful in behavioural psychology. It makes reinforcement a negative thing for no good reason. Every single thing a human does is because it has been reinforced. Sometimes you get something out of a situation, sometimes something is taken away but there is always a motivating force. Its not always a physical thing or ‘bribe’ like a toy, sometimes a regular and sincere well done will suffice but it needs to be at least 5 pieces of positive feedback to one piece of negative. The more naughty a child is the more important it is to stick to this ratio.

Of course you may not be interested in any of this and just wanted to make sure we were all made aware that you potty trained your child quicker than us and without the use of toys. Well done.

I’m with you.

It’s child dependent, but to give you my eldest as an example. He’s 11 and has ADHD. He will sometimes get into a negative cycle of behaviour and when it gets to that, I have to give him a proper telling off. I don’t shout and scream but my STERN voice comes out and I will tell him straight how awful he’s being, how unpleasant it is, how it’s unacceptable and if it continues he will [insert lengthy screen time ban which he knows I’ll see through].

It works. I think sometimes he needs a metaphorical shake and to be brought back to reality.

A slight raise of my voice and change of tone is enough for my youngest. I’ve never had to really shout at him.

Your second example OP with the toy, that’s just normal parenting surely? Being told calmly that if he can’t play nicely the toy will go, and then removal of the toy if he doesn’t play nicely, isn’t particularly strict. Just normal authoritative parenting which children need.

I saw an example of gentle parenting gone wrong just this week while out. The Father was attempting to discipline the child who was really playing up in a supermarket but the tone of his voice was just so wet and ineffectual. There is no need to bellow but it was never going to work, it was not the words it was the tone.

I was raised with hardcore Asian parenting. But there is also the concept of losing face and respect to elders. I am not however a fearful person so I don’t agree that a child will automatically become someone who is fearful. I saw a very elderly Chinese lady in a wheelchair recently. I’m not ancient but I’m late fifties, we locked eyes and we both did what was a mini bow to each other, it looks like a nod but we both knew what we meant. Real old school stuff.

DH and I did clash a bit as he was raised in a liberal household. We ended up with something a bit in between but I was much stricter than my children’s friends parents. I looked to each child’s weak spot. DS cannot stand missing out and is very outgoing so the threat of exclusion was good to make him behave, DD the opposite and a quiet soul so not allowing her time alone would be a punishment.

Whatever is threatened has to be carried through, just as a reward promised must be given. Never do what cannot be delivered by you the parent.

My friend is a school teacher who has come over on the HK visa, she can’t quite believe just how bad the behaviour is in English schools. She has done a lot of cover work in various schools. She has settled on working in a school for pupils with complex additional needs as she finds it better because if the kids play up it’s not really their fault.

I often think this when I read threads about five year olds who think it’s funny to smear poo on their mothers ( and who are not ND).
None of the advice was to say to sharply reprimand and tell the child in no uncertain terms that it’s disgusting and do the mother then continues to clear it up whilst becoming increasingly resentful.

@Poppyfie1ds fair enough can see how it read that way! I was just trying to offer a balance to the previous poster. Some kids take a long time, some don't need any training at all. It's so individual that it's hard to see it as something to brag or despair about.

I guess in our household we notice the absence of the negative, without going ott with praise or prizes as I feel they can be equally ineffective. So there's still reinforcement as you mention. Hoping to instil intrinsic motivation so people make good choices even when there's noone external there to praise them. That idea that you get an 'uh oh' feeling or a positive feeling at times which can basically let you know if your behaviour was something to repeat or not, and that feeling can be more important than someone else's opinion on it. An example of why would be bullies, a group of bullies can be egging on and praising bad behaviour, so if you're motivated by someone else saying that what you're doing is great then you'd continue. Whereas perhaps on the inside you recognise that acting that way is not reflective of the person you want to be. Would far rather they had faith in their own internal voice in that moment.

I think if you are reading this and looking at your one, much adored, four year old and thinking 'I could never shout at my child, it's abusive' - that is fine. But several of us on here have now adult children. We shouted. We may even have ranted a bit. And those children are now adults showing no obvious signs (or even non-obvious ones) of having been abused. They are confident, loving, outgoing people, who haven't gone NC with us or restricted our access to their children. They have excellent mental health, are resilient and functional human beings.

Something that seems unthinkable to you, the parent of the adorable four year old, might suddenly become necessary when they are seven, ten, fourteen. They won't always be that biddable, adorable pre-schooler. They may challenge you in ways you haven't yet thought of. But if you are too entrenched in your 'shouting is abuse and will damage their mental health' mindset, it might make life much harder for you as your child is perhaps joined by siblings and becomes an adolescent.

We all do what we can to get through. Condemning others for not parenting 'your way', when they don't have your children, is counterproductive.

There is a time for anger - as you say, it works. However it needs to be the exception not the rule and you need to be loving generally.
My parents - at times - shouted and smacked (it was the 70s!) . I’m well adjusted and have a great relationship with them. Consistency is key - I was never surprised by what behaviour prompted these reactions.

My DS used to push my buttons all day on occasion, I’d try not to lose my temper, but eventually I would. He’d cry, say sorry and ask for a hug.

ibrealised that he was acting up to get the hug.

so from that point on if he was beginning to behave badly I’d stop and ask him if he was ok, because he was acting up and would a hug help. From memory this was around the 5/6yrs old stage

but you’re right, they absolutely need to see consequences sometimes. They have to see where the red lines are.

100 times this!

my DS is 20yo now, we had a sticky patch between 15-17, but he’s the adorable sweet man he always was. Super proud of him.

boundaries and dialogue are the key, you need to set what your limits are, encourage honesty and transparency/truth. If you don’t get the boundaries in place early on, you’re stuffed.

think long term. We’re raising adults, not children. You’re raising a man, not a boy. It’s a huge responsibility. Gentle parenting does not work.

Agree here totally. Child of the 70s here too 😂

Kids need firm boundaries.

Comparisons to work colleagues aren't relevant, because kids are kids, they are still learning and their brains aren't formed, and it's your job to teach them. So no I wouldn't yell at a colleague, if there was a serious issue I'd report them to their boss, our professional body or the police as required. That isn't relevant to children.

I also wouldn't change a colleagues nappy, breastfeed them, cuddle them to sleep, make them study, decide what they have for dinner, enrol them in a school/job of my choice and speak to the teacher/boss about them, or decide on their medical treatment. So the comparison isn't there.

I yelled at my DC when it was warranted and I never asked permission, sought validation or lost any sleep.

I don't care about trends in child rearing. Raising one's voice is not abusive, unless abusive words come out or the decibel level is inappropriate for the situation.

We have a right, as parents, to use our discernment with our own children, and I will die on that hill.

Luckily, my DCs are all adults so I don't have the problem but I wouldn't change anything I did for anyone.

My MIL tried that negotiation bullshit with her kids, which she learned from working as a receptionist at a primary school, and they ignored everything she said and she ended up being very bitter and resentful and yelling constantly at them as adults!

Sail your own ship, folks.

Oh my goodness, that’s revolting. Of course that merits a raised voice and a clear expression of disgust. Otherwise your children will be warped (and probably get e-coli.)

There are times when losing your shit gets absolute attention.

DS would tell you though that when I don’t, but go deadly quiet followed by explicit expectations and absolute consequences is terrifyingly more effective.

You do realise that this is going to lead to them becoming adults who need constant attention, reassurance and praise? Excessive praise and treats for behaving like a decent human being? Good luck to their future spouses, managers, friends etc. And ignore bad behaviour? That’ll be fun for the people around them in the future.

Also 14 days is a very long time to take to potty train! It’s written here as if it’s a bit of a brag.