To think being angry works

[sallover]

I have two kids (2 and 5.) I’ve read the books and what you’re supposed to do to deal with poor behaviour or habits and I was doing it.

And it wasn’t effective in the slightest.

So for instance my five year old pees all over the place when he goes to the toilet. For well over a year now I’ve been consistent and made him go back and clean it. It’s been hugely disruptive because he often argues and refuses so then deal with that but calmly made him clean it.

And then I lost it with him at the start of the holiday. I properly yelled at him for quite a while and made him cry; told him it was disgusting, dirty and unpleasant for others. And he hasnt done it since.

We had it again this morning where he was getting frustrated with a toy. At first I sympathised and helped but he just kept roaring and screaming. So I told him he could either stop and play calmly or I’d remove it because it was unpleasant for everyone else to listen to screaming.

No doubt someone will ask why I posted on AIBU because I don’t think I’m being unreasonable and it isn’t quite as simple as that. I don’t want to be a horrible shouty mum they are scared of. Equally though I don’t want them running rings round me and it did feel like they were tbh. (The stern / firm voice never worked either before anyone suggests that.)

Hard agree. Sometimes they need to shit themselves 😂. I did it in the holidays and they behaved very well for quite some time. I’m all for gentle parenting but sometimes it doesn’t work. The ones that think it does work all the time are the ones that you see at the park and their child is whacking everyone and pushing in and they’re trying to have a conversation with said child while everyone else is stood waiting and apologising on the child’s behalf blah blah blah. Ain’t nobody got no time for that, it’s my kids turn on the slide, grab your child and move!

Yes this is exactly my experience. I will ask nicely. If they ignore me, I will ask firmly. If they ignore me I will ask very firmly and tell them I am getting cross. If they still ignore me (or seem to think it's funny to wind me up) then I end up "going off on one". Not yelling and screaming but I can see them thinking "oh shit, I've pushed it too far this time". But miraculously they discover the power to understand what I'm saying!

I wish they would listen in the first place so I don't get cross (which they dont like). My youngest said once that I "hurt her feelings" by getting cross but it wasn't as if she didn't get fair warning.

Some biddable kids do well with gentle parenting. Mine push every boundary and need a mum who isn't afraid to go off on one when he situation requires it.

Weird thing to brag about.
We all know that shouting and fear works. It’s the impact it causes. You obviously don’t care. I feel very sad for children.

It isn’t bragging, it’s talking.

I often find when I post things on here it gives me headspace to reflect and think about the why’s. Others have disagreed and it’s been interesting because while on paper they are correct this doesn’t translate to what actually happens.

The other interesting thing is that while some posters have been vocal in claiming I am abusive and other things, the poll is one of the most unequivocal ones I’ve seen on here, which really has surprised me.

I suppose no parenting book will advocate yelling like hell at your kids and shocking them into compliance but I do think it seems to work for most of us.

And - I wish it didn’t. I wish I could ask nicely ‘hey ds, when you wee on the floor and the seat, it isn’t very nice for other people.’ But that just … doesn’t work. If it did it would be not only much easier but much nicer. It just isn’t, though.

Sometimes it needs to be done.

Also some of those who are in favour of gentle parenting have had it work for them. We can only parent the children we have, and some parents don't realise that it isn't their amazing parenting that means that their children are biddable and obedient, it's the fact that they have children who are naturally more biddable and obedient. But these parents can't imagine what it is like to try to bring up children who don't listen, don't care and won't obey boundaries. So they think that the way they parented their children is THE way to bring up children, because it worked for them.

But parenting isn't a one size fits all, because children run the gamut, from very laid back and compliant to totally feral 'not give a shit' kids.

As I said. We know that shaming and fear works. But why would anyone want to parent that way? Because it’s easier?

Erm…because it works.

Actions have consequences. It’s kinder to teach this as children, than to have them find out as young adults, be unable to cope, and be doomed to a life on pip with anxiety because they’re unable to cope with life.

Look around you - it’s not hard to see what gentle parenting has achieved.

No, because it works.

What if the child doesn’t listen to time outs, banned to bedroom and other punishments? Are you supposed to have gentle reasoned chats with them and not shouting even if they’re kicking you and shouting back? A parent has limits too you know.

I wouldn’t say shaming and fear is good on a regular basis never. That will create a frightened or angry child. Maybe sometimes it works.

I’m actually going to explain in a bit more detail; it helps me, even if it helps no one else 😂

My DS was a bit of a tricky toddler. He was prone to biting at nursery, pushing / shoving in groups and could be extremely territorial about toys, often practically stalking kids who had something he wanted. He also had an element of dog in the manger there as he would want something someone else had. He’s got steadily better and he’s mostly lovely now, at five years and four months.

BUT he can be very difficult to talk to. The ‘old’ Ds started to emerge last week, when we met up with friends and one of the kids had a toy aeroplane. Ds became demanding of it, wanting a turn, demanding a turn, sulking / whining when it wasn’t his turn. And I know the scrips / how it should go. Empathy first: you really want that plane. Holding the boundary ‘I won’t let you take the plane from Oliver.’ (That, by the way, is easier said than done when you’re carrying a picnic, a travel potty and a two year old.) But DS doesn’t give a shit if I understand how much he wants that plane or not 😂 And he had and will walk off when I’m mid sentence ‘I understand you re -‘. Then I get him back ‘ds, ds - I realise that -‘ and I get the whine ‘whaaaat whaaaaat?’

I do actually get that it’s hard for a five year old to see someone playing with a toy they want but I also think five is old enough to realise the concept of possessions.

I suppose I’m explaining this to clarify that what should work and what does work doesn’t. He doesn’t care if I understand or empathise and to be honest I’m not sure I want him growing up thinking that everyone is going to be hugely sympathetic and understanding about him desperately wanting a cheap toy plane. You lost a match you really wanted to win - yes, I hear that and I know you really wanted to win. You’re whining and insisting on a toy? No, sorry, I don’t think that’s good.

I am sure as eggs are eggs that ds is neither frightened nor angry. I’m just kind of losing the will with people who expect me to have saint like patience and also to keep doing things that are detrimental to my entire family because they are the ‘right’ things to do.

The version of me that didn't experience raising a toddler would have been upset with you. Post toddler me: SOMETIMES.YOU. HAVE. TO. GET. MAD.

Tough love is one of the hardest things I've had to learn as a parent. I cant promise it will ever be easy, but it will get easier.

Too many people confuse gentle parenting with permissive parenting. I never named how I raise my child. I simply don’t use outdated, authoritarian and fear to parent.

Cool. So you would be happy being shouted at and made to cry at work if you did something wrong?

It’s not about having unlimited patience. I said myself, I’ve raised my voice before. But I apologised for it because it’s not right. You don’t see anything wrong with shouting and making your child cry. I do.

These analogies never work because if I was ignoring company policy for nearly two years it would result in dismissal and depending on the ‘crime’ possibly further consequences. Which indeed would have me in tears. But how can you translate that into something equivalent to a five year old? You can’t.

I left the thread because you were describing shouting at your small children @sallover

I find your latest post interesting , not least because you describe empathising/ understanding and your DS runs off, whines etc which is exactly why he isnt listening in the first place
Too wordy

I wouldnt bother with that post 2 possibly 3 but even then a very quick, I know you are angry etc

He needs an immediate consequence
Personally if he has form I would tell him on the way there what would happen if he doesnt behave -we will leave , said very firmly

If he then started, take him to the side, hold his arm and say we will leave if you carry on, its not your plane .
Now go and play nicely.

Any shouting, hitting ,or whining
Straight home
He then knows you mean business

What you and @Vroomfondleswaistcoat are describing in children is not whether they are obediant but whether they have the ability to regulate their emotions
Yeah its shit if you dont want to stop playing/ eat/ someone else has a plane , but different children learn regulation/ coping skills at different ages
If you regularly shout at your kids , they never learn and are either emotionally immature or shut down as adults
I didnt have perfect children, left many a park with a toddler under my arm but my god they knew that I meant what I said and that creates emotional safety

I left the thread because you were describing shouting at your small children

But now you are back 😅 You don’t have to announce nor explain your departure or your arrival.

He doesn’t listen to I know you are angry. On a good day I might get ‘I know you’ before he darts off in pursuit of the plane.

He needs an immediate consequence. Great, if you can find one he cares about and won’t exacerbate the situation, I’m all ears. I doubt it though.

I used to do the whole leaving places if they ‘couldn’t behave’ thing and it was awful. It punishes the other child, it is often very difficult to do if you have more than one and one needs forcibly carrying out and the other refuses to go, so which one do you leave … it leads to the most awful screaming and raging and nothing changes (as per the pee on the seat) Truthfully I don’t see that as massively superior. I just don’t. And for all you know the other child could grow to hugely resent their parent for always having to leave because of sibling.

No form of parenting is magically going to lead to perfect, well adjusted adults because life just isn’t like that.

@sallover would sitting apart work? It's situational, won't always be an appropriate course of action. But if we've been at someone's house or a stay and play or whatever where one child is playing nicely and the other is acting out then the child who is struggling with impulse control etc comes and sits with me. Rather than us leaving. Then I might read to them, or offer a distraction in the form of a snack or a different game or something. Sometimes in them moment when the tempting is right there kids aren't ready/mentally available to listen to the life lesson about sharing and taking turns etc, or even stopping long enough to have feelings acknowledged blah blah...but good old fashioned 'hey look at this alternative shiny thing!' can be a useful tool.

Feels like that's half the parenting battle. Having multiple tools, tricks and treats ready to go and knowing which one to use in each situation. Also just to reiterate what I said up thread, in my opinion, one of those tools is raising your voice. There's a time and a place for it. I think the pyramid of parenting someone else mentioned was a good way of laying it out.

I suppose it depends if you are aiming to have a well behaved child or a well balanced healthy adult. Frightening and shaming dc might make them compliant, but I don't think it's great parenting. It's just convenient for the adults.

Honestly I think the bar should be a bit higher than this.

There's a couple of problems with over-use of calm, patient parenting. First it doesn't expose children to a normal, healthy range of emotions, second, it doesn't upscale well to group settings when you've got one adult with many children and can not spend multiple minutes patiently dealing with each child individually to the neglect of the others in the room.
Natural consequences often have their uses, but aren't always desirable. Fine if it's the child going to feel cold without a coat, not effective when it's other people getting their socks wet around the toilet- even if that's from the child being sent back to mop up.

It's human nature; emotionally healthy people will go from calm and patient to frustrated and cross/ angry when reasonable requests are repeatedly ignored, and children need to learn that and long term, that's part of them understanding their own nature and emotional range.

Angry or shouty should not be the default, but sometimes for some children it needs to be very clear that a line of expected behaviour has been passed and sometimes loud and stern or beyond is required to make the point. In a way, the expression of negative emotions is a natural consequence of repeated poor behaviour.

(The Look might work on hundreds of young people I've worked with but unfortunately on one of my DC's who is a mini-me, it automatically gets mirrored and I see my expression on his face. Not effective at all)

Exactly, you can’t they are 5. Not an adult with adult functioning brains.

And yes, you would expect a consequence, but you would not expect to be yelled at so much you cry.

It is abusive. No matter how you spin it. What happens when yelling doesn’t work for something? Are you going to start beating him?

Occasionally having to raise your voice and really make your point (could be seen as ‘shouting’ by some but is likely just the level of exasperation most show at times) is normal if needed, I know I’ve had to with my twins. Sometimes they just won’t bloody listen and I have to show them I’m frustrated; of course never in a scary way, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing for children to be sharply reminded ‘too far, you need to stop’ at times. Mine know they’re very well loved and safe so I’m not losing any sleep over the odd mum rant.