For thinking it is odd for trans men to give birth

[Overthinkingotter]

Talked to friend today and got on subject of trans men having babies. I said that, imo, being pregnant/giving birth is the last thing I’d want to do as a trans man as surely the process of pregnancy would be incredibly triggering for someone with gender dysphoriac? I the said that, if I were a trans man who wanted a baby, I’d most likely find an alternative way rather than carrying the baby myself.

I thought this was quite a mild comment, but fried reacted as if I had said something quite offensive/bigoted.
Is my view really so unreasonable/extreme?

I know several trans people through different work and volunteering settings and through my personal/family network and although they are all different, none of them fit the stereotypes you describe. They just want to be able to live their lives as themselves without people making assumptions about them or indeed attacking them. Many are not interested in activism at all.

Yup. Every cell in a persons body is coded make or female. A male skeletal structure is different from a female skeletal structure. Male hearts and lungs are bigger. What’s your point?

Indeed, it's amazing how trans people can pick and choose which things to do or not do, while ranting about not being recognised as their chosen gender identity. Giving birth to a child is the absolute preserve of women, thanks to human biology. I wonder if they expect hospital staff and midwives to still call them 'he' while actually giving birth? What bollocks.

I've already said I wouldn't be, snd I haven't suggested anyone should be okay with a trans woman HCP. I just said the statistical chances of encountering one is tiny.

Literally “ what bollocks?”

It's illegal to discriminate against someone for a protected belief, whether they are in a NHS hospital, private hospital or anywhere else.

Including being gender critical

Was being GC a protected belief at the time that woman was declined care?

I hope that when we understand it, we’ll navigate these difficult issues in a more satisfactory way.

More understanding on both sides would help but there are inherent conflicts that won't be resolved with more understanding.

I feel a great deal of empathy for people with gender dysphoria. I've had it myself.

I can't use private spaces that include men, including transwomen, without setting off my PTSD. The only understanding that would help that is if all transwomen understood that and stayed out of women's spaces/avoided women's services. I don't think that will happen because many transwomen feel like it's their right to use women's spaces/services. More knowledge is good but it's naive to think that understanding will resolve this.

I don’t think I’m being naive. The discussions will go on. But the dialogue now is just stuck because the fundamental basis of the debate are not agreed.

They are able to give birth because they are women and not men. They can’t have it both ways.

Only women can fall pregnant and birth babies. I'm all for identifying as whatever you want. But surely if you identify as a man, you cannot fall pregnant or give birth?

There's not that much agreement between the people who say transwomen are woman as to what they mean by transwomen.

At one end you've got people who think it's anyone' who thinks/says they're a woman and at the other there are people who think only those who have had genital surgery are really transwomen. Loads of different opinions in between.

The people who think that humans can't change sex are pretty much in agreement that all transwomen are men

Well I'd say that you have to be a man rather than simply identify as one. As we can see, trans men can conceive despite identifying as men.

A trans man can give birth if they have the reproductive organs of a woman (i.e. they haven’t had a hysterectomy) and are ovulating.

If they have been taking hormones and surgery their bodies will no longer have all the biological attributes of a woman.

I agree with you. I just don’t get it, a trans man wishes to be male but yet they want to do the most womanly thing on earth that is to give birth. Only women give birth, end of.

I don't think there will be agreement. Some people think that gender identity is more important than sex or even that one can change sex by taking hormones or having medical procedures. Others think that sex is immutable and either don't believe in gender identity or think it's not (or rarely) important.

How do you think more understanding will resolve the conflict between women who can't use single sex spaces/services if transwomen do and transwomen who want to use those spaces/services?

Be specific. Do you think it will lead to fourth spaces (third for disabled) everywhere and all transwomen all using those spaces/services? What about the costs? What about transwomen who don't want to use those spaces/services and feel like they're being discriminated against?

If I’ve had a hysterectomy and been through the menopause I’m still a woman.
If I’ve had a double mastectomy to prevent breast cancer I’m still a woman.
I’m a woman because biologically every cell in my body has the chromosomes of female.
A trans man can cut and dope her body however she wants but she’s still female.

No. That's a misdirection that trans activists have created by the reuse of the words that previously meant sex to label something different.

You said : "one group of participants are coming from the position that some people are authentically transgender (‘trans women are women’) while the other group are working from a completely different premise (natal sex defines gender and ‘trans women are men’)."

Sure.

But take a step back.

You don't actually need to know which definition of "man" or "woman" (if any) is "correct".

All you need to know is that they are clearly meaning different things.

And that the fact of being female-bodied, whether that is the state to which the word "woman" should apply or not, is unarguably the reality for around half of humanity. This bodily reality has consequences for us that are not down to how we may identify, but to our physical capabilities, to how people react to our bodies and as a consequence to how we learn to think about ourselves.

So, the real question is not which is the right meaning for the collection of syllables "woman" and "man", it is why does trans activism desire so strongly to deny legal and social recognition of the simple and factual existence of physical sex and the clear consequences it can have especially for female people?

There’s a name for someone with the reproductive organs of a woman. Bet you can’t guess what it is…

What are the 'biological attributes of a woman' that taking hormones will change?

It’s the cognitive dissonance . It makes no sense that an individual who sincerely believes they are “in the wrong body”, presents and identifies as a man should do the most female thing of all, and the thing that only females CAN do. Pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding are the purview of women. It’s insulting to pretend that men can do it, and it’s overly precious and entitled to demand that reality be overwritten and pretend that a man (even if they are female) can do any of the above

(Last time I checked humans were not members of the hippocampus genus , and the breeding habits of clownfish and seahorses are utterly irrelevant )

It makes no sense that an individual who sincerely believes they are “in the wrong body”, presents and identifies as a man should do the most female thing of all, and the thing that only females CAN do.

It makes perfect sense when you understand that transgender people see "woman" or "man" not as simple sexes but through the lens of their own personal sexist obsessions.

So to the pregnant trans man, "woman" represents a bundle of stuff they project onto women so they can reject it as being "not me because I'm not a woman". And if "being pregnant" isn't part of that bundle of stuff, they see no reason not to be pregnant.

It's utter sexist solipsistic bollocks obviously and society should never have started down the route of allowing individuals' disordered projections about sex to be treated as having some sort of objective authority, but here we are. A handful of angry, confused and sexist people are being treated as having more insight into the reality of womanhood than the vast majority of women who just sort of exist regardless.

And how can they give birth without the “biological aspects of a woman”?!

really is mind boggling!!
I still stand by if it’s not evidence of significant mental health issues, they are then screaming attention seekers who must be centred in everything

Utter solipsistic bollocks sums it up quite nicely tbh