For thinking it is odd for trans men to give birth

[Overthinkingotter]

Talked to friend today and got on subject of trans men having babies. I said that, imo, being pregnant/giving birth is the last thing I’d want to do as a trans man as surely the process of pregnancy would be incredibly triggering for someone with gender dysphoriac? I the said that, if I were a trans man who wanted a baby, I’d most likely find an alternative way rather than carrying the baby myself.

I thought this was quite a mild comment, but fried reacted as if I had said something quite offensive/bigoted.
Is my view really so unreasonable/extreme?

Yes but you are saying it as if you think I would be against that. I don't know of the stats when it comes to the risk to TIMs in male spaces (haven't googled). I do have some idea of the number of trans women overall, and some idea of how many trans HCPs there are (Google).

But if the risks are as small as each other, then I would agree that TIMs should always and only use male spaces because I'd also view that risk to them as tiny. If it is even somewhat as small, then, I'd most likely agree.

Why would my argument be that? My only argument has consistently been that the chances of coming across a trans woman doing your smear or mammogram is tiny. So tiny that it doesn't seem rational to me to avoid health screening on the basis that your HCP might be trans.
Why are you foisting these other opinions on to me?

I wasnt ridiculing anyone. I just said it was irrational.

There have been cases of trans women complaining that doctors haven't treated them as women. (smear tests, gynecologists etc.)
There have been cases where trans women have sued people because they would not give them a service that is for women. (waxes, lesbian dating etc.)
These may be a small number but it happens, once these people stop wasting other people's time and destroying the the lives of people that have jobs that are bases on biological fact, then maybe people will start taking the point of these trans people more seriously.

Calling the women who self exclude irrational, repeatedly saying that the risk is tiny, and making remarks like you're "happy for them," if self excluding is "their choice" when it is not something they are freely choosing, but has been forced on them as a result of not being able to be certain a trans identified male HCP won't present himself when they ask for same sex intimate care... that is ridiculing them.

Why is it so difficult for you to empathise with these women? Why is the simplest solution not that when female patients ask for same sex care, that the NHS and private hospitals just send a female HCP? Why should this tiny risk even be a thing?

It hurts no one, least of all the trans identified male HCPs, for a female HCP to be provided to a female patient who asks for it. Or that a letter which goes out to a patient assuring them that they will be seen by a woman HCP means an actual female bodied, adult female human HCP. It hurts no one, and in fact helps a number of women who have been self excluding. Where's the downside there?

I had to go for a pelvic ultrasound the other week, internal and external and when I got to the ultrasound department it was really busy, lots of women waiting to be seen etc.

Everytime a woman got called into the room it was a male technician who came out, called the woman’s name and introduced himself as the “assistant technician” before taking the woman into the room.

It instantly made me feel uncomfortable just knowing he’d be in there, never mind not knowing who else was going to be in there, and I do wonder if any other women in the waiting room felt the same.

When he called me in he escorted me over to the chair/bed that I’d be lying on (complete with stirrups) and introduced me to the woman who would be doing the scan. I was relieved there was a female in the room but I still felt really uncomfortable.

I had the external scan done first but it was the man who came over whilst I was lying down and told me to lift my top and undo the top of my jeans and handed me some of that blue tissue roll to tuck down rhe inside of my knickers/jeans in order to give me some more dignity 🙄

When the woman came over to do the scan the guy was just sitting in the corner of the room watching us. He obviously wasn’t doing anything untoward but it felt so uncomfortable.

They then both went to the opposite end of the room and pulled a curtain across me whilst I took my jeans and underwear off and covered myself up with some more of that tissue ready for the internal scan.

They both then re-appeared and again, although the woman was doing the scan the guy was still sitting in an area of the room where he could see me and I felt so uncomfortable. He was just sitting there watching us. The angle he was at meant he couldn’t see the screen, so he wasn’t there as as a learning opportunity as the woman doing the scan wasn’t even talking to him, but just knowing he was sitting there looking at me having it done felt awful.

There was no reason why he couldn’t have just stayed on the other side of the room behind the curtain so I would feel like I at least had some dignity. I don’t even know why he was there.

The whole thing just felt really off.

I was in there for about 20-25 minutes and he didn’t play any role except instruct me on how to lift my top and pull my trousers down, and then sit and watch me have it done from the other side of the room.

Like I said, he didn’t technically do anything wrong…. but it was a room that was solely set up for pelvic ultrasounds, and what all the women in the waiting room were waiting to have done, so you’d think a bit of sensitivity would be had and that if an assistant was a requirement, they’d at least find another female member of staff, rather than have a waiting room full of anxious women who knew a man would be present, and then women feeling vulnerable during a procedure that is already uncomfortable enough ☹️

I guess my point is that even having a man in the room is bad enough for some women, never mind one actually doing the care whilst pretending to be a woman.

It's an interesting question whether "religious reasons" is a legitimate reason.

You could argue that belief in a god, a specific one, not the 415 that other people believe in, is just as great a delusion as men that think they are women.

So perhaps we should be just as judgemental when considering their "rights".

It is all very confusing.

Though the one thing I am sure about is that no-one should get offended just because someone used the "wrong" word.

I do see it as a free choice and as the risk is tiny, I find it hard to empathise with skipping screening on that basis.

I can't control how hospitals handle the tiny number of TI staff they have. Me saying what I think they should or shouldn't do is pointless. I can only respond as a service user.

Well that’s fine and dandy until you wake up one morning and realise that some of those individuals who you have been so careful to respect and value have sneakily got together and tried to pinch our language, our right to privacy and dignity, the right of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists and disturbed men, the right of female athletes to compete against other female athletes, the right of womens groups to exclude men and are also hell bent on pushing to allow the medication and surgical mutilation of vulnerable young women with severe mental health issues.

Edit to add am responding to @GlovedhandsCecilia
nothings being foisted?
merely the question that as you appear to write a male person should be accepted as a female re health care provision even if a female is requested… if you asked for a black health care provider and a white born person who identifies as black, you would would validate their belief?

But that's my point.

When you consider people as individuals you don't stick a man in a dress into a woman's prison, but nor would you stick someone 5' who fully transitioned over 20 years ago into a men's prison.

If you only consider groups you make a stupid rule that won't cater for the above two people.

As for stealing language - i agree. I dislike trying to relabel women as cis-women just so that you can be a trans-women and say "we're both women". It's a sleight of hand and a category error.

I haven't said anything at all that suggests that. If you can quote where you think I may have said that, then i will address those specific points

Why wouldn't you put a man who 'transitioned' into a men's prison. Whatever you consider 'transitioning' to be, he didn't change his sex.

I dont think a woman who has been living as a man for 20 years should be in a mens prison either. She is a woman and should be in a woman's prison. I don't see any argument there.

Thank you for illustrating my point so clearly

It's not that odd.

The whole ideology is so batshit crazy that this is just another bit of the bat shit IMO.

If you are searching for something rational in the trans ideology, you will be searching a long long time.

They want their cake and to eat it too

I agree that a female technician would have been preferable for many female patients, me included, especially as he had no obvious reason for being there looking on.

Please explain how someone unable to allow a man to give intimate health tests bothers anyone when she expects a woman to do it.

They do stick men in dresses in women’s prisons - particularly rapists.

A man who transitions is still not a woman. He’s a man who has chosen to be mutilated because of mental health issues. Anyone born a man goes to MEN’S prison

It’s very simple. And you can make snide comments about proving your point - good for you not accepting basic biology!

That’s fine. That ‘irrationality’ may ultimately kill me. But better that than the NHS risking upsetting the trans community by insisting on biological reality, hey?

You didn’t say how you would feel if you asked for a Black HCP and you got a white one in Blackface. However unlikely, are you really going to claim you would be fine with it!

As long as the men are okay, apparently women don’t matter

And again.

The biology doesn’t lie. But we are more than our reproductive biology.

And if the trans community is so small and just wants fit in, why are they so loud and so aggressive (ironically could be argued that those are more masculine traits)

Is it odd for transmen to give birth?

Firstly, there is no such thing. Understanding this basic biological fact makes it so much easier to deal with your question.

Secondly, only women can give birth.

Thirdly, men cannot give birth.

Fourthly, if a woman wants to call herself a unicorn, a man or a stick of barley, then she may do so but she is a woman and she can give birth.

Fifthly, It is odd for a woman to call herself a man but, given that she is a woman, yes she can give birth.