AIBU to discourage uni for daughter, I'm worried about debt without career plan?

[HappyLemonChickenCurry]

My eldest child is starting to think about her next move after 6th form and is talking about university, I went to uni in the 90's when financing was very different. She is academic and wants to go because she loves learning, but won't be studying a degree subject with a specific career goal or profession in mind. I am finding myself discouraging her because of the debt she will come out with and from what I hear about finding work after a degree, but am I wrong? Is the debt worth it for the formative experience? I would be really interested to hear experiences from those whose children have recently graduated, or peoples thoughts in general. It feel so counter-intuitive to be discouraging!

In this case OP is questioning if it is best for her child

which is quite fair enough

But that’s very privileged to say. Everyone wants what’s best for their child, but that doesn’t mean they can all afford £6000+ a year, especially for something that is much more in the ‘nice to have’ camp. By that measure, should we all be sending our children to private school at severe financial detriment, because it’s arguable “best”?

Imagine a household of £80,000, over the threshold, might sounds like a lot but with a high rent/mortgage, other children, perhaps even childcare, they could have less disposable income than a family where the student will get full loans. They simply may not have £500 per month to give to their child, you seriously think they should just suck it up even if the student hasn’t demonstrated a clear and reasonable plan forward?

It's not the approach I'll be taking with my DDs. I'm keen for them to experience higher education regardless of future earnings or career path. We're a family who value education for its own sake, and I've done degrees in later life with no career intentions, and we paid private school fees for our dcs.

I don’t think I would have been particularly encouraging if any of mine had wanted to do a degree just for the love of learning.
Ive paid an average of £10k a year for each of their rent, they have a loan and fees debt of around £50k each on top of that.
OP only you know if you’re wealthy enough to pay £80k for someone to enjoy learning for three years.
its very sad that this is the reality now, but I was clear that my DC needed to have a plan.
My DD went at 21 because she had worked out what she wanted to do as a career.
she had a great three years, loved learning, and now has a good strong career to help pay her student loan!
I am still paying mine - £200 a month.

No, she has absolutely no idea what she wants to do, but she has always loved psychology

Yes we will have to help, she will only be entitled to minimum loans. We have two other younger children.

Psychology is overcrowded but add the neuroscience twist and its stronger or get NHS work experience to add to the mix

I went to uni to do a subject enjoyed but with no career plans at all. I know the cost is much higher now but looking back asides from the academic degree I benefited from

• living in a new city away from family so had to learn independence
• budgeting
• year abroad (did a language)
• met life long friends who are now like family
• met my husband
• learnt a whole new way of living and working (my home town was quite rural)

I got a job in an entirely unrelated profession and because I had a bachelor’s degree I was able to undertake a (company sponsored) master’s degree in a subject specific to my job. I hadn’t a clue what I wanted to do and had no idea my profession even existed until I stumbled into it.

I would suggest maybe a gap year to build up some savings then if she still wants to go she goes.

I think you should encourage her to do a degree. Both subjects you have mentioned can lead to specific careers and are offered by many universities. You can perhaps guide her to universities that are up the rankings but not the most expensive in terms of accommodation.

DS graduated in biological sciences in the summer. He had no career plan at 17 and chose the subject he most enjoyed. He got a 2:1 and has been very lucky to get on to a technical grad scheme in the food sector - an industry that hadn't been on his radar at all.

DS has 2 friends who graduated in psychology. They have both gone on to do masters as anecdotally one is required for any professional role in that field.

YABU

If you think about it there are very few degree subjects that are truly vocational - law, medicine, dentistry, vet med, architecture etc. Thetrfore the vast majority of graduates are studying courses not directly related to a career path.

Secondly, the harsh reality is that most professional jobs require a degree even if in fact they could be done by your average bright school leaver.

Thirdly as you will have experienced, being a student, likely living away from home and mixing with a wider variety of people, is incredibly valuable in terms of life skills, independence and resilience.

I have two kids who have been through Uni, studying generalist social science type degrees. They are both carving out good careers. The loan repayments are just not an issue amongst their cohort. It’s another line on the payslip alongside pension contribution and season ticket loans. They don’t see it as “debt” as such they really don’t.

My eldest two went to uni without any idea of what to do career wise. Their school completely pushed everyone into going and I now feel it was wrong. They have a ridiculous amount of debt and one has recently completed another degree that was fully sponsored by the company he works for. It also cost us a fortune as we earnt over the threshold. My youngest daughter was very academic and yet decided against it, due to the amount of debt that she end up with. She did an apprenticeship with the civil service and now at age 25 earns around £50k. She loves her job and has no loans to repay. My elder two regret having gone to university straight from school.

What experience of Psychology does she already have, OP?

Is it a subject included as a component within her Bac?

I have one graduate child who is in a graduate job and another at uni. They only care about the net salary part. The same with their friends. It doesn't matter about the pay rises and how much more is going to student loans, they only care what the number is that is transferred into their bank account.

I don't think you have to have your life mapped out at 18. Our eldest always knew exactly what he wanted to do and that is now his reality. Our youngest just loves a subject, all of it, has no idea what career path they will take with it but it is a very high ranking university they are at and we know that lots of companies recruit from there.

I think uni is still a valuable experience to have if you choose one that you can keep up with academically. You never know where it might take you. Having a degree also shows a level of academic learning to future employers too. What is the alternative for her? Look at all options.

Psychology is a good degree of employment options though. It leads to well to HR careers, good for many management roles, for joining the police etc.

It’s not a degree I would overly worry she’s not got a career path decided yet, because it’s a degree that could lend itself well to a selection of roles.

If you don't know how student loans work then you shouldn't be commenting.

They are a rip-off and no-one should go to uni unless it is for a vocational degree.

I think rather than framing it as encouraging/discouraging uni it is better to have an honest discussion about the pros and cons of different next steps.
Uni could be open/studying at home/moving away to study. There are different courses with different career prospects. It is worth talking through the different options. She wants to go to uni? What are her goals? Can she articulate them even if she doesn't have a specific career in mind?
If you think there are good non-uni options, what are they? Would you encourage her to try and get a low-skilled, temporary job for a year to save and think about next steps? What apprenticeships and longer term jobs are available if she continues to live at home? Are you going to support her to move away for better job and apprenticeship opportunuties? Has she researched what is available. If public transport is limited can she drive?
High quality job and apprenticeships (including level 3 and 4 ones) suitable for 18 year olds are competitive to get and opportunities vary by area. I think there a definite advantages to some young people to taking this path (as well as disadvantages), but it is not like applying for uni. They are jobs with training and you have to apply to ones in your locality or where you are able to move to. Where I am the vast majority of openings are dental nursing and early years childcare. Many are inacessible without a car. Other options come up, by they are sporadic. It is likely you will need to move if you are targeting a specific role.
I would also consider how it will impact your relationship if after a discussion of the different options your daughter would like to go and you don't support her choice. You went - I know the financial model was different then. How is she going to feel knowing you had an opportunity that you don't support for her?

What type of university will she likely have the grades for?
Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick, Leeds, down to about QUB bracket still worth it.
Greenwich, Westminster, MMU level, don't bother.

I do a lot of graduate recruitment; I broadly don't care what the degree is or where they studied, all our recruitment is institution blind. But those who perform strongly on our aptitude tests & on the interview tasks turn out to be people who have gone to long established institutions with high academic standards, and they've really been pushed to develop how they think and how they present their ideas.

Look for courses where she'll have smaller classes, rigorous assessment (not overly weighted to coursework or group projects) and get the opportunity to do some in depth research. I'm frequently amazed by the number of grad candidates I see who can't talk coherently about independent work they've done at university. That is an utter waste of £50k.

I am sure that some schools and colleges push uni alone, but ones local to me also encourage and support apprenticeship applications. Social media accounts often highlight successful degree or higher level apprenticeship applications. Just to illustrate how competitive they are a recent post was something like 'Congratulations to Bob who has secured offers for both a degree level apprenticeship with astra zeneca and an offer from Oxford to read ....'
At degree level, they are not easy to secure.

Going against the grain here (kind of). I don’t think discourage is the right approach, but personally I think supporting and helping her make an informed decision is a good approach. There are so many ways to continue to learn without uni that don’t come with the massive debt - college courses, apprenticeships etc. I never knew what I wanted to do leaving school and tried a number of different things (one year of A levels, then two years of a creative subject, then teaching assistant) then finally accountancy in my mid 20s which has become my career (mid 30s now, AAT qualified, could go into chartered qualifications if I wanted to), so have no education related debt.

I just think uni is pushed so much at schools, it’s important to be informed of other options available and be known that it doesn’t need to be a decision made now. If she spent time doing college course/s first and then decides uni would be the best option, she can do that. A couple of years later is nothing really in the scheme of things.

Basically, I disagree with both extremes of discouraging and staying out of it completely, and think a more balanced approach would be best :)

I love your mindset but have one caveat. My mum defo took this approach & encouraged us to go, enjoy the experience, study something we loved & worry about a career afterwards. She thought being a graduate of any vaguely academic subject would be a good thing.
I did an arts degree (think English, History etc) at a top uni.

I wish wish wish it had been made clear to me that the “graduate tax” should be taken really seriously. People (teachers, parents, Martin Lewis) brushed it off as “oh you only have to pay back a bit once you earn a certain amount”. £27,000 sounded like a huge sum to my 17 year old brain. I did not think through that those 3 years would cost me dearly for my whole working life.

I had to do a postgraduate course in something that would actually help me get a job, so had to take out a postgrad loan, which means I pay a further 6% on everything over 21k.

overall I pay 15% of my income above min wage to student loans. Plus tax, NI, pension etc. I’ll pay back many times what I borrowed, but never pay it off due to huge interest rates.

with salary bunching, professional careers don’t pay that much more anymore & often don’t even require the degree!

I loved my enriching & stimulating time at university. It broadened my horizons & gave me amazing experiences…but if I could go back I’d never have gone!!! It’s not worth 45 years of going without.

my point being, absolutely encourage DS1 to do that, as long as he is fully aware of the true cost

Just to add, if she has all the information and still chooses uni, then be 100% supportive. My view is that it’s our job to give them the tools to make informed decisions, and then it is her choice to make.

It certainly was true when I joined! It was a long time ago. I'm glad to hear that things have changed.

Well it’s no good basing your advice on an experience years ago, that’s no use to a new student!

Would it be worth going through the money side of things with her, showing her what happens to the loans in terms of interest? And letting her know you basically only get one shot at doing a degree unless the second one is for nhs roles (maybe some teaching too?) so if she choosing something now and is used up the student finance if she wants to do something in the future she may not be able to fund it? And she can go to uni at any age, I did in my mid 30’s.

Ex-university lecturer here. I wouldn't discourage but I'd strongly encourage a year or two out if she's at all unsure. Nowadays they get only 4 yrs funding max so they can't get as far as 2nd yr, decide the course isn't for them, or fail due to partying too hard, and then do another degree later without having to pay tuition fees as well as full living expenses for at least one year. I'd talk about uni as a fabulous opportunity she shouldn't squander. I taught many, many who were there mainly because it was the thing you did and who had limited interest in the subject. But those who had made an active choice to be there and engaged well really got something out of it. Psychology is a great all round degree that is interesting and also gives them skills in data analysis, essay & report writing, critical analysis, scientific method etc. Many employers like it for this and it also leads to specific psych careers with further postgrad training. The British Psychological Society (BPS) careers web pages will help with ideas about what she could do with the degree & university webpages have to provide info about employment outcomes for their graduates. All psych degrees include biological psychology if the course is approved by the BPS, and most allow greater specialisation in neuropsychology in 3rd year. Whether she's prepared to research all this is a good test of whether she's ready for the once in a lifetime university opportunity.