I just wouldn’t allow my child to do that… AIBU

[Dumbo18]

2 very strong willed kids who don’t really care about consequences and can get very emotional - angry, sad, happy just big emotions really. We often find daily life can be a battle especially with the 4 year old (7 year old can be just as bad) not really looking for advice as I’ve read countless threads on the subject so have seen and tried it all but here is where I don’t know if I am being unreasonable (maybe more am I missing something) 4 year old was refusing to brush teeth at bedtime, had to be done not an option especially as she had cake for pudding. Would absolutely not do it and I could hear in my head lovely people off this site saying well I just wouldn’t have that she would have no choice etc and it got me thinking how on earth would you just not have it?? Force her mouth open- absolutely not. Refuse to read her a book- tried, no tv in the morning- tried, calmly explaining why it’s important- tried, shout- tried. She brushed them in the end so not looking for advice more just an answer on if you say I wouldn’t allow that what is it that you do? Not only with teeth brushing but daily life. I think it’s easy to say I wouldn’t allow that when you are the parent of a child who does what they are asked, responds to consequences etc.

Haven’t read the full thread because it’s really long now so apologies if someone has already said this, but one thing I learned from managing a team in the workplace that I find translates over to parenting is giving the child some control. It is not negotiable that they brush their teeth but they can have some control over when to brush the teeth; before bath, after bath or even in the bath for example. Or they could choose a new toothbrush or a new toothpaste. Or chose the alarm sound on a timer. Or choose which adult helps them.
And it can help for other things too. Like letting them choose what to have for a meal from a shortlist of things that work for you.Although I would say don’t overwhelm a small child with too many choices else you get decision fatigue. If you think about how many decisions you make about preparing a single meal, it can be overwhelming for an adult, so You just choose a few things that you are happy for the child to control and then give them as many options as works for you.
And it doesn’t just have to be giving them choices about chores or vegetables, you can let the child choose fun stuff too. So you might want to go to a park so that isn’t negotiable but you could let the child choose which park from a shortlist of parks that work for you. And having that control or freedom, even on something completely unrelated, might make the child less likely to push boundaries on toothbrushing or other chores.

I typed out a reply to you but it was a bit personal so I’ll just say yes this is the problem I wasn’t recognising when a boundary had been crossed and I didn’t know what to do next. Some people for personal reasons might not know what a proper boundary looks like.

If you not are a parent of a neurodivergent child ( yes , l didn’t really believe in ADHD/Autism either til l experienced it ) then you have NO idea of the dramas and defiance . Stand offs and demanding respect don’t really work and unless you want to spend their whole childhood in conflict so you have to pick your battles. I learnt the hard way through sweat soaked arguments and hours wasted trying to “win”, that there are ways around most problems that work most of the time. Allowing them to choose their toothbrushes and toothpaste and even getting a “brush teeth mirror” helps and an egg timer .. also watered down mouthwash was the bare minimum requirement and then brushing their teeth while asleep was a compromise. I promise you, one problem drops off and another appears , so staying sane is the aim .

Read the book ‘The explosive child’. This gives a really good explanation and strategies to get things done and why certain strategies don’t work. I’m not saying OP’s children are explosive. The techniques would work for the majority of kids.

Find out what it is about a task that makes them refuse to do it. Then ask them how you can solve the problem together. Not at the time of the defiance though.

There have been only a small number of posters who have said that teeth did not always get brushed - they sounded like pretty severe cases of SEN, and the posters sound far from passive about it to me. They sound pretty upset about it. I haven’t read a single post stating that the kid didn’t want to so they didn’t bother. I feel like people are completely missing the point. Posters are talking about the lengths they’ve gone to in order to get the job done. The OP DID get her DC’s teeth cleaned, it’s in the very first post. As for “cajoling” and not being able to see out a battle of wills. There are days where I literally feel like all I’ve done is cajoled and engaged in a battle of wills (which I win, eventually). I’ve done it for literally years. It’s exhausting. I will keep doing it, because it’s important and my DD isn’t at a level where I have to physically force her and risk one of us getting hurt. I can’t understand how someone can read about so many challenging children and what their parents go through daily, and yet still be so smug and insist that they are just a superior parent.

I see children with severe SEN for medical procedures. The hoops those parents jump through to try to get the procedure done on a child who just cannot comply. Some of them travel for miles, knowing the chance of success is low, but they try anything and keep coming back. They are the superior parents.

Teeth brushing is hands down the hardest thing consistently we’ve had to do with our SEN child. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone!

I can’t understand how someone can read about so many challenging children and what their parents go through daily, and yet still be so smug and insist that they are just a superior parent.

Spot on.

Most of the smug brigade here haven't even been arsed to RTFT, because they are so keen to jump on and leave their personal big steaming dollop of judgy ignorance. And it's the same post!! Over and over again, literally the exact same point being made.

No originality, no moving the thread along with interesting context, no wit or levity. No humility, not noticing everyone else has said it already, therefore not caring they are wasting everybody's time.

And they call us the lazy corner-cutting parents!

I bet money Im a better parent than the lot of you, "imposing your authority" wankers.

I'm being a 'haven't read the thread' wanker.
I have an extremely defiant child and obviously so much of the advice on here and Instagram etc hasn't worked for me.
However, if my son refuses to do something, I make him do it. I would have held him down until he did it/father held him down and I brushed. Same with clothes, going to school, turning the TV off.
You don't want advice but one thing I noticed in my son was he was better behaved when he felt like he had control. So if I let him pick clothes or put his own shoes on or pick what film we all watch.

Yes exactly. Almost everyone who has commented has acknowledged that they do manage to brush teeth consistently using whatever method works for them. I don't think anyone is judging parents of kids with significantly complex needs who can't manage alongside the input of specialist professions. But I am allowed to hold the opinion that there are plenty of parents of kids that don't fall into that category, who have children at mainstream school, walking and talking, where the parenting is the biggest problem. The thread is going round in circles now and I am repeating myself so I'll bow out.

At no time did the OP say her child had any SEN ( unless I missed it) I know ,as I suspect do many others that is a different kettle of fish.

Having had one child out of two like this (probably undiagnosed ADHD) I know where you're coming from. DC would defy me to the last and all attempts at discipline were met with renewed defiance. Many of the solutions described on this thread would be described as child abuse on any other thread. For the record, my DC is grown up now and, although still quirky and struggles with some aspects of life, is good, loving DC who respects their parents

Out of curiosity, have you ever had to do it? Hold down a wriggling, squirming child, who is screaming their head off and trying to kick, punch, scratch, bite you so they can escape?

Many of the solutions described on this thread would be described as child abuse on any other thread

Indeed they would.

Sit on the side of the bath or closed loo & explain that you'll sit there until they brush their teeth, doesn't matter how long it takes. Let them know that the longer it takes them to do the longer it'll take them to get to bed which results in them being tired all day the next day & means they won't have the energy to play out, go to the park or whatever they usually do after school. Keep calm & just keep reminding them that they won't go to bed unless they brush their teeth. Be prepared to sit there all night if needs be. Don't give in. It'll only take once or twice doing this before they realise you're not playing. If they do test you & won't do their teeth just sit quietly & when they're tired the next day remind them why.

Yes.

Most of us only do so when it’s absolutely necessary, for medical, health or safety reasons.

Sure, kids don’t like brushing their teeth. But I’d bet you they like abscesses even less, or extractions, or even just being anaesthetised at the dentist.

My son doesn’t like being held when he’s in crisis. But my assumption is that he also wouldn’t enjoy getting ran over.

Sometimes, on rare occasions, it’s necessary. Keeping them well and safe is one of them, if there are no other ways to do it.

My son refused to brush his teeth, when one fell out he put it under his pillow. In the morning he had a note from the tooth fairy explaining that they couldn’t possibly give a pound for such a dirty tooth. The teeth were then religiously brushed twice a day.

I was reminded of this thread this morning when my autistic 9yo was in such a heightened state about going to school that she could not do her teeth or get dressed.

After an hour of taking things slowly, step by step, she let me brush her teeth for 1 minute instead of two in the downstairs loo before we left.

Most days she manages fine on her own, on days like today, it's just too difficult.

I had the luxury of time today to give her space and help her to get ready at her own speed. Most mornings I don't. There have been days when she has gone to bed without brushing or into school without brushing. Not many, but it happens.

No chance am I trying to pin down my already anxious and upset child to brush her teeth. Her nervous system is already completely dysregulated, forcing her, shouting at her, shutting her in the bathroom would be the definition of counter productive.

I have an older child, also autistic, who is what you'd call 'compliant' and if I ask them to do their teeth, get dressed, put their dirty washing in the laundry basket, they just do it.

I always used to laugh at people who'd say "put them on the naughty step" for the same reason. My eldest would have (not that that ever would have needed to), the youngest would have just ran off.

Fair enough. A lot of people don’t actually know how hard it is, so I was genuinely asking.

It all depends on the age to me - I know this is not all about toothbrushing but as an example mine is 3.5 , so not far off yours', and brushing teeth is 100% happening, so she has her turn and then I have my turn as she obviously won't do it properly at her age. If she doesn't want to do her turn then I will do it all, and if this involves some upset then it involves some upset. Normally I first try to make her laugh so she opens her mouth, but if that doesn't work then sometimes her dad will hold her still while I do it or I will try and hold her still myself, but tbh more often than not, now that she knows it's happening either way, she will just let me do it.

I would urge so much caution with the way you handle a willful child though - I have started as I mean to go on with my stubborn little one as her older sister (my SD) is similar but was allowed to dictate so much along the way that now at 11 she is absolutely uncontrollable, she has zero fear of any consequences, doesn't care about anything, as been used to winning and getting her own way forever - there is no way to get her to do anything now. If she had not been allowed so much leeway when she was younger I'm sure things would be so different for her.

Mum of a son with ADHD, the toothpaste was too strong and he hated minty flavours. From the age of 3 tooth brushing was a battle. We chose a fruity toothpaste and as he grew older, weaned him onto a mild minty one. Still a bone of contention but he’s more amenable. We can withhold everything, he’s not bothered and it doesn’t affect him and he doesn’t care. We ended up making a game of everything with small rewards when he was younger and rephrasing everything to not sound like a demand. He’s a stickler for a firm routine so we kept to it. Oldest one has autism so he has to have routine, brush his teeth / shower and just relishes praise.

Many many times. And dragged him across roads when all he wanted to do was flop down in the middle and lie down. And held on to him kicking and screaming in a hospital because otherwise he kept going in to spaceshhe very much shouldn't have been.

I'm NOT perfect parent. But I don't let my kids get away with stuff. I win the battle, no matter how exhausting.

My son is only 7 but he’s tall, fast and strong and when his adrenaline kicks in I’m completely physically incapable of making him do anything, or stoping him doing anything. I literally passed out before from the sheer strain of trying to restrain him in Morrisons when he had a meltdown last year.

This only works whilst you physically can and it doesnt address the reasons or need that causes the behaviour.

If children are in this state of fight/flight/freeze there is a reason snd unless you address those needs it wont stop.

They just bigger and these panic responses continue and you cant force them. You need to work out what they need or what the issue is.

For some that will be routine, structure, support for sensory issues or support re cognitive ability. For others it will be different, we have major sensory issues impacting and a need for familiarity but low demand and novelty.

Very much depends on the child and you do get to a point where you literally cannot force them and some children reach that point much earlier.

I have had to restrain my child and had him sedated for medical procedures etc as the only way to do it safely. Its absolutely not something I would do again unless there was no other choice and medical staff wont do either unless truly necessary.

@CoffeeCakeAndALattePlease sending hugs because I hear you and its tough. My child is just 10 and to big and strong but we are getting support in place, after much battling with LA. I hope you have people to support you.