I just wouldn’t allow my child to do that… AIBU

[Dumbo18]

2 very strong willed kids who don’t really care about consequences and can get very emotional - angry, sad, happy just big emotions really. We often find daily life can be a battle especially with the 4 year old (7 year old can be just as bad) not really looking for advice as I’ve read countless threads on the subject so have seen and tried it all but here is where I don’t know if I am being unreasonable (maybe more am I missing something) 4 year old was refusing to brush teeth at bedtime, had to be done not an option especially as she had cake for pudding. Would absolutely not do it and I could hear in my head lovely people off this site saying well I just wouldn’t have that she would have no choice etc and it got me thinking how on earth would you just not have it?? Force her mouth open- absolutely not. Refuse to read her a book- tried, no tv in the morning- tried, calmly explaining why it’s important- tried, shout- tried. She brushed them in the end so not looking for advice more just an answer on if you say I wouldn’t allow that what is it that you do? Not only with teeth brushing but daily life. I think it’s easy to say I wouldn’t allow that when you are the parent of a child who does what they are asked, responds to consequences etc.

Do you not already make sure your boundaries are followed?

If you don’t, they’re not really boundaries and I wouldn’t bother instilling them.

I mean that genuinely - if you’re picking battles that you’re okay with losing, they’re not worth picking.

People who have never parented defiant ADHD kids just don’t and can’t get it OP, but I do. My now 13 year old was like this, and even some of his teachers just didn’t get him - no amount of consequences in the world made a blind bit of difference, he didn’t and couldn’t be made to care. His older brother was the complete opposite, and ‘normal’ parenting (consequences, etc) worked a treat with him, but number 2 was built different and had to be parented and taught differently. I made (and make) a lot of mistakes, but a lot of the time he just got his way because there simply was no other way. No amount of ‘we’re not leaving the bathroom until you have brushed your teeth’ or similar would have ever worked, he would literally have stayed there all day long, and all night long. I gave up on the small stuff and only really fought for the very, very important things (he didn’t brush his teeth properly for over 6 months for example, and we emerged and his teeth are fine). Daily life was managed by not fighting him over things that really don’t matter in the long run, and finally, aged 11/12, after starting high school and with him finally having a couple of very understanding teachers, he turned a corner and life is now much more manageable and ‘normal’. We still have battles, mostly around screen time now, but he’s matured enough that things like teeth brushing for example are not really an issue as much any more. I know it feels so daunting, and the weight of judgement from other parents who don’t understand can feel unbearable - my son was not invited to parties or sleepovers all through primary school as he was vilified as the ‘naughty’ one - but I promise you it will, eventually, get better. Now he’s very popular, some of his teachers love him (some still clearly can’t stand him, those who are old school and have no understanding of SEN needs), and we manage reasonably peaceably. Much love and support to you.

The authority is created when they are 18m old and you pin them down and bloody well do it, you foster that absolute certainty that mummy is fucking in charge before they are old enough to form a different view. You have to be absolutely consistent with consequences for years, even when it makes your life harder (no screens!).

95% of the parents i know who say their kids don't respect their authority only started trying to impose it consistently when the kid was about 4 and had already learned that wilful behaviour got results in one form or another. Its much harder to undo that than it is to prevent it.

Agree 100%.

That’s exactly what we needed at that time 😄

oh op! I have a 16 month old. Hates brushing her teeth. It gets done… with me in tears twice a day….i hear you though, my little one had started biting, just me (no one else) and the reality of saying no, however gentle but firm doesn’t work when she is in a mood. I can’t correct her if she isn’t receptive so no strategy for that although I did yelp when she bite my boob… she has been avoiding the boob ever since :)

Pinning them down is just showing them you’re physically stronger than them.

So when you’re not, what happens then?

Have you ever worked with animals? I spent a lot of time with horses as a younger woman and you have to establish mutual respect, which isn’t forcing and bullying them into something.

I have 3 DC - the first has ADHD. I was also a complete mess with my own undiagnosed/unmanaged ADHD when he was little and it was a huge chaotic storm of crapness. I couldn't get him to do ANYTHING. This regularly reduced me to tears because I felt like "WTF, he's 4??"

Anyway he mostly grew out of being a little butt I think he would have been OK but a bit of a PITA if I had actually been consistent about things plus leant into some autonomy focused stuff (which I did TBF and which did help a lot, but my own chaos was the thing which dragged it all down). He really knew how to push your buttons, well especially mine. He is lovely now even if his thought processes are a bit sideways sometimes (I put this down to teenage hormones TBF) and I truly believe he was never actually trying to ruin my life much as it felt like it when he was between the ages of 3-7 particularly. However, reward/punishment still absolutely no use and never has been. He just feels hard done by and doesn't connect his action to the outcome, because his actions always make sense to him even if he's clearly BSing himself an excuse right there as the words come out of his mouth. If it's directly related, it makes more sense to him, but that's it. This is for school as well as us.

DS2 has ADHD too but we think he is also autistic. He started medication much earlier, because we could get him to do things at home since we knew what worked for him - a little autonomy, but a huge amount of routine/understanding what would happen when and why, but school was an absolute nightmare for him and he couldn't cope with the unpredictability of the 25 other people in the room, and would completely lose the plot. Medication has transformed everything, although it's still true that it would be extremely difficult to get him to do anything using reward/punishment/disapproval. It just doesn't work unless his agenda is taken into account. What the medication does is reduce his general sensory overwhelm and allow him the brain space and pause button to consider other people's agendas (rather than just imploding at the first sense that someone else might have one) and he may or may not accept them alongside his own, TBF he usually does now that he actually has the ability to consider them. In many ways his adherence to patterns/routine makes him the easiest child, but OTOH it means you can't really make exceptions "just this once" as he will then understand this to mean "this is the new routine" and melt down if that doesn't happen, unless you can summon sufficient enthusiasm/energy to make up some kind of complicated reason behind why we can do it this time but not every time. DH is great at this, and it works for school, because any time they break the routine it generally is for some special event and they make some fanfare about it. But I am utterly terrible at it and tend to forget my own rules plus what the normal rule is and DS2 gets enraged at my inability to just follow the plan

Anyway the reason I wanted to reply to the thread is that DS3 is in that peak butthead kind of age (4.5) and although I often find him utterly infuriating he also just responds to everything including discipline completely differently to the other two. For example this evening DH called him up for his shower and he replied "No, I don't want to have a shower!!" DH said "You have to have a shower" and DS3 said no again. I braced myself mentally because I just knew I was going to have to go and carry him to the shower or invent some kind of game to get him upstairs but by the time I turned around I realised that he was huffily stomping up the stairs saying "I. Don't. Want. To. Have. A. Shower!" with every step! He then proceeded to get into the shower and complain throughout but did get himself washed. This is also the kind of thing I've seen DC do in other families - ie, do the thing they are supposed to do, even if they are complaining about it, and I wondered if their parents were doing something that I was missing, but I don't think that's what it was. DS1/DS2 would absolutely never have gone towards the shower with that depth of feeling about not wanting it. You would have had to drag them in kicking and screaming or employ elaborate persuasion tactics to convince them that it was their own idea, and with DS1 it was like that every single time for fifteen years until he suddenly wanted to live in the shower and spend £££££££ on expensive toiletries. DS2 was easier because as long as the shower/bath is a routine he will happily stick to it.

I give my child a choice. “Either you do it or I do it”.

Sometimes I end up doing it.

Why are you explaining things to a four year old when they are tired?

I can respect that you're willing to own it and admit you allowed your child to basically have unbrushed teeth for almost 6months. But it sounds like you never actually did have a battle that involved staying up all night or staying all day in the bathroom. In our house, it wouldn't have been the parent that gave in first. But each to their own.

If you want to learn about this, look up ‘what motivates an ADHD child’. You will see that the NT motivators of reward, consequence, importance don’t motivate them. They are motivated by passion, interest, urgency. You cannot make them do anything. They will only do something if they get to it their own way.
that posters knows her child. She knows that sitting in the bathroom would have no value whatsoever.
I have an NT child who has been an absolute dream to parent, literally no trouble at all.
‘clean your teeth darling’
’ok’ and does it
my child with ADHD is COMPLETELY different.
‘clean your teeth darling’
‘ok, in a minute’ and may or may not do it

"I do think some people don’t realise that there are kids out there who don’t respond to your authority or rules or the Mum look as someone has said."

Many people absolutely don't realize this.

There is a lot of ignorance in the world - just do your best to tune it out (this gets easier with practice).

Don't waste your energy trying to defend yourself or educate them - people who have made it to adulthood without realizing that children can be different likely don't have much in the way of self awareness or the capacity to be reflective.

It's a nonsense to automatically go to, someone has different opinion so they've never dealt with ADHD/autism/learning disability etc. Parents in similar situations can also believe in holding the line and making sure it's done one way or the other whether that's by bribery, negotiation or just better staying power.

I have an ADHD PDA son. We have had many showdowns at teeth cleaning time. We bargain, negotiate, gamify, eg, we hold him upside down and pretend to brush his toes to make him laugh, pretend his nose is a button that opens his mouth, etc etc. Around a dozen times he just hasn't played ball so I have pinned him down and brushed them. It is non negotiable.

Things I let slide include eating his dinner (but he doesn't get pudding unless he does), laying on the floor by my feet when we are out unless it's v v dirty (if he isn't trying to run that's a win), taking his pants off and putting them on his head if we are just at home, standing or jumping on the sofa, turning up at nursery in his socks because he refused to put his shoes on (I packed them in his bag) etc.

Overall I try to pick my battles. He gets away with so much more than his siblings did. I bet others judge us when we are out. I would have judged us. But some kids just WON'T obey or conform and it is not an option to physically restrain or force them to 'behave'. It is also not an option to tell them off all day long. Their self esteem would be crushed. You'd be exhausted.

The general rule is I won't allow it if it is dangerous or hurts/upsets others (including his siblings). He was upset in a restaurant earlier because I took a sharp knife off him that he was jabbing at the wall, and in the park yesterday because I binned a really, really sharp stick (I found him a great big blunt one instead). I empathised with his sadness but told him it was my job to keep him safe and look after him.

"I do think some people don’t realise that there are kids out there who don’t respond to your authority or rules or the Mum look as someone has said."

Totally.

These people do a lot of harm and sadly tend to be equally as ignorant about that.

This! My second is incredibly wilful & stubborn but my rules are simple & consistent:

• I don't explain myself to toddlers
• I don't negotiate with toddlers
• I don't ask toddlers if they want to do x, I tell them "we are doing x".
• if they won't do it I do it for them.

https://tryautobrush.com/?srsltid=AfmBOooTMtFtUSFQJCafI9vQdtvjQFl5_rjas7TnRgvmZULdvHy_lsig

I brought one of these and its been best thing. 30 seconds and they are done.

You know what's even worse? A dentist having to force your mouth open and yank out all your infected diseased teeth, because you didn't brush them.
Sometimes the alternative is worse

Sigh. And then you get DS2 whose response was 'No! No social story!' Because he was both very bright and very autistic...
He cleans them now but it was far, far trickier than the airy - and at times quite unpleasant - mother blamers on this thread would like to assume.

Have you tried the red dye? Some kids like the visual clue of the red and it looks kind of gory as well.

I haven’t read all of the replies but I did see a couple of people mention adhd. My youngest is in the process of being assessed for adhd at the moment and apparently a big sign is having an absolute nightmare over teeth cleaning. As soon as someone told me that, it was a big moment where I finally found a potential reason for the twice daily battle over teeth cleaning! It’s ridiculous isn’t it?! I have no answers, but I feel for you as I’m there too!

This reminds me of my dad picking me up and walking away from the fun fair, and saying “I don’t negotiate with terrorists or six year old girls!” 😂

Absolutely. The harm these parents do by not meeting their kids basic needs is appalling. And the passivity and lack of recognition that it's their fault, not their child's when fillings or tooth extraction under sedation is needed. My child has enough general anaesthetics on his wee body without needing extra ones because I can't cajole or see out a battle of wills.

I have a freshly 4 year old, he was refusing brushing teeth since he was around 2. (there was no problem before). So battles for nearly 2 years, every day if with me, nearly no problems with daddy or grandma (but grandma only when on holidays, she lives in my home country, so not a regular option). I do had to force him. And every 6 months on a check up we were told how healthy his teeth are, but it's true we eat very little sweets, no lolies, we do biscuits or cakes occasionally but most of sugar he gets from fruit. It was a nightmare till 3 months back when I bought him a toothbrush on battery. He loves it and we have no problems since and he does it with me normally, like he did with daddy before.

And if cajoling or waiting it out doesn’t work?