I just wouldn’t allow my child to do that… AIBU

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2 very strong willed kids who don’t really care about consequences and can get very emotional - angry, sad, happy just big emotions really. We often find daily life can be a battle especially with the 4 year old (7 year old can be just as bad) not really looking for advice as I’ve read countless threads on the subject so have seen and tried it all but here is where I don’t know if I am being unreasonable (maybe more am I missing something) 4 year old was refusing to brush teeth at bedtime, had to be done not an option especially as she had cake for pudding. Would absolutely not do it and I could hear in my head lovely people off this site saying well I just wouldn’t have that she would have no choice etc and it got me thinking how on earth would you just not have it?? Force her mouth open- absolutely not. Refuse to read her a book- tried, no tv in the morning- tried, calmly explaining why it’s important- tried, shout- tried. She brushed them in the end so not looking for advice more just an answer on if you say I wouldn’t allow that what is it that you do? Not only with teeth brushing but daily life. I think it’s easy to say I wouldn’t allow that when you are the parent of a child who does what they are asked, responds to consequences etc.

This this this this this. All those high and mighty ‘I just wouldn’t have it’ types have never seen a PDA child in full throttle ‘no’ mode. Forcing them to do anything will only end in abuse on either side. It’s not ok on either side so that’s that.

How many nights in a row do you let your child go without brushing? Or would in theory, if your child is actually compliant with it and so it's a hypothetical question?

I’m not going into all the ways that I definitely don’t have a complaint child, but he’s so non compliant that 2 days ago he ripped one of my nails clean off - full thing, and a doctor literally refused to see him because of his “behaviour.”

If you knew him (aware you obviously don’t), calling him compliant would be genuinely laughable.

He is headstrong, huge, and determined. He tried to throw himself in a lake a few years back.

He responds to firm boundaries and firm boundaries only, and only a very limited amount of them. We have to choose very few battles.

I would continue to argue that cleanliness is one of them, and that if we’ve decided that it’s non-negotiable- it’s not non-negotiable.

I would also just put warm water in so it didn’t go cold, but I assumed that was obvious.

100% yes. Well said.

We showed our daughter some photos of people with really bad teeth... a bit gross, but very effective.

The Hismile toothpastes are fantastic for kids who dislike the taste of mint. Available at Boots. My autistic daughter finally "graduated" to regular Colgate around the age of 12 or 13.

I see a lot of parents saying they have tried consequences and it doesn’t work. In reality they aren’t consistent with consequences. They think they are but they aren’t.

Agree 100%. I've not read the full thread, but generally on MN there are an awful lot of people with an awful lot of advice who haven't been standing where you stand.

'I wouldn't let my child do that' and 'LTB' are my favourites 🤦🏻‍♀️ as if it's always that easy, and as if the OP hasn't already thought of this

Honestly, this is why some parents spank, and IMO if it’s legal where they are and works for them then that’s their choice.

I think that goes without saying . . . !!!!

Ok Op said question was about 'i just wouldn't allow my child to do that' and wondered how parents achieve it. I'd say most parents have some form of control over their children, and have used strategies so that largely they have the authority so the children are largely compliant when asked to do something by time they are 6 or 7.

Those with kids who would literally stand in the street for an hour despite persuasion and suggested consequences....I really feel for you. I'm not sure what the answer is?

I appreciate that typical strategies aren't possible for all children and especially with special educational needs or disabilities. But for all those giving us a hard time. Op didn't say her children had special needs or disabilities? Maybe I've missed that.

@SleeplessInWherever i didn’t mean you personally. In fairness though you did say your child isn’t allowed out of the bath until they are done. No problem if they just do them but if you have a child hellbent on NOT brushing their teeth then a) forcing them in water is dangerous or alternatively b) involves them sitting there until the water is freezing cold.

This is the problem. Anything you can do to force - really force - compliance, involves physical force and / or chastisement. And we don’t do that now. So what do you do? I don’t have the answers here. But I know it’s a more complex one than ‘stern tone of voice’ or ‘don’t let them have any cake,’

The answer is moving them, provided they’re still of an age where you can.

That’s how my partner and I gained the bruises we have received on Friday, physically moving a 9 year old to where he (genuinely) needed to be.

If he was in the road, we’d do the same thing.

Stood in the middle of the street, we’d stand near him but ignore him until he ran out of steam and went in. I’ve sat on the floor in the street before now waiting for the end of a sit down protest.

I agree I think people don’t realise it’s not as easy with a strong willed child and I say that as a mum of a passive laid back child.

for me I find it setting the boundaries in reverse iyswim?

So she had a toot about tooth brushing. Next time she asks for sweets or chocolate answer sweetly “of course - after a whole week of tooth brushing with no fuss”.

The it doesn’t get mentioned again. When she’s finally met that offer a sweet treat and remind her how happy it makes her and how it can continue with no fuss
brushing.

People who are strong willed are often demand avoidant. So it helps to make the choice there’s because they realise it gets them what they want.

As for how to get them to do it that moment. Shut the bathroom door and say when you’ve brushed it’s time for a story. Then sit and doom scroll for however long it takes. Don’t engage and if the ask anything or try and start a conversation respond with “you heard what I said”.

Eventually the learn the fight isn’t that interesting or rewarding - it’s just some people take longer than others to grasp it!

I think my frustration is how quickly some seem to say “they won’t do it 🤷🏻‍♀️” when there are strategies that might help and haven’t been tried, and this idea that SENd kids only do things they want.

Obviously their motivation is different and it’s more difficult, but unless you’ve tried keeping them in the bath for as long as is safe, “my turn your turn” (which is how we taught him to brush his hair over a verrrrry long period), grinning and bearing a meltdown to get to the end goal, following them round with a toothbrush, etc etc - you’re not “trying everything” and actually “they won’t comply” doesn’t wash unless you’ve actually tried.

Consequences are more complicated than they look.

imagine you have a baby maybe a few months old. You say to the baby “unless you brush your teeth you can’t have any sweet things or pudding for the next day”. Does it work? No. Firstly the baby doesn’t understand you, second the baby doesn’t have the physical co-ordination to do the task.

there’s a lot of pre conditions for consequences to work and number one is that the child has to be physically and mentally capable of doing the task. If they are not then it doesn’t matter what consequences you put in place the task will not get done because they cannot do it.

number two is that the child needs to be able to understand what consequences mean. You’re wasting your time doing consequences with a two day old baby for example. Some children with learning disabilities equally don’t have the intellectual capacity to grasp consequences.

number three is that the child needs to be able to consciously choose to do the task. So this sort of works with tooth brushing (although there are situations like a strong gag reflex or physical issues with the throat) as most children can choose to do this.

it doesn’t work with stuff like toileting and only partially works with eating as conscious control over this is much less strong. Children who have sensory issues find this much harder as they’re getting a lot of negative feedback from their body about the task already so to overcome this with consequences you really do have to ramp up the negative consequences.

and finally, if you think about something like a smear test, in general what helps people cope with it is having a supportive nurse, having someone talk to you through it, give you warning, teach you relaxation techniques and if all else fails give you diazepam. They don’t just threaten you with consequences - because honestly for many people it’s so horrible they won’t do it no matter what.

If you read back you would have read how my child required 3 adults and sedatives to restrain him for a medical appointment and then an emergency mdt meeting to decide to give him ketamine to get him safely to theatre so they could give him general to do what they needed to do. We cannot currently access a GP surgery and are getting specialist help because of the level of overwhelm and fight/flight even a mention of medical apo creates. 2 weeks ago I caught a bus with him and another supporting sdult. We hadnt realised at one point on the route the bus went past the hospital. Cue child in fight flight hurting me and trying to get off a moving bus in sheer panic.

Firm boundaries absolutely do NOT work.

We do get 'compliance' or rather cooperation? Im other ways. That has meant total reduction in demands. Letting his nervous system repair from trauma caused by school. A team of specialists involved.

I am safery restraint trained i actually work in a complex needs school for pupils age 4-19 in a class with 16-19year olds who are fully grown men sized. I can do consistency, all the autism strategies and compliance based techniques its my bread and butter at wirk. Absolutely none of it worked with my youngest.

Connection, PACE techniques, meeting him where he is at, coregulating etc. We have made anaxing progress with a great team around is and CWD involvement now and staff who are appropriately trained. But its a journey built on trust, he must tryst, be listened to and be in control (or feel in control). I liken it to curling it may look like doing nothing but it takes constant smoothing of his path, of adapting the environment, forseeing sensory issues (a nightmare as he has a 'profoundly complex sensory profile'. Reducing demands or the feel of demands. Understanding his communication, the signals he is giving. The tics, tourettes, the pda shock language and all those tiny body signs (which i am sure you understand with your own child how subtle those signals are). And even with that we just cant get everything right all the time.

He is learning to manage his own capacity, to verbalise his needs in safe ways. He can be amazingly capable when supported correctly. But sometimes he just CANT and no amount of boundaries can make him. It will do the opposite.

Someone asked re teeth cleaning we always do them before bed. Not in the morning, he also uses a flavourless toothpaste, a particular brush. I still clean them for him he is 10. We also use special teeth wipes. We have a lot of strategies. Declarative language, modelling, power in momentum. It is a process. But teeth cleaning has been a line we have generally kept to once a day and his teeth are ok, he doesnt like it when they have plaque on and will scrape it of with a teeny little teeth cleaning device then I brush.

He has 2 to 1 support at home for all education, plus a 3 rd adult for safeguarding.. It took them over 2 hours the other week to get him out he was out for 10 minutes and legged across road 🙄. We OT provision, ongoing support from Ed psych. All trained in pda, sensory processing and tourettes. This was all the local authority Ed psych/OT recommendations after assessments.

The relief tbh of getting diagnosis and professionals saying actusaly its X, Y, Z he needs was huge.

There is tricky and not compliant and then there's NOT compliant. Give me 100 autistic kids (i have 4 other autistic children myself, 3 adhd as well) but 1 pda child with the other co occurring conditions small has... is more than enough 🤣 he is an amazing boy but its been THE steepest learning curve.

Btw @SleeplessInWherever its not a competition your boy sounds like he needs a LOT of support and I imagine its been very hard and you have worked very hard to meet his needs and get him to 'comply'. I hope as he gets older and bigger your family get appropriate support. Does he have a good school? That is vital if you get a good team around you in terms of how teenage years etc go.

My big kids are 26, 23, 21, 18 and 15.. then 10 I am not looking forward to teen years with small but we are getting things in place so hopefully it will be ok 🤞

You have no idea

So after all that explaining, tooth brushing once a day is the red line for you. So you've found a strategy that ensures your parenting non negotiable is adhered to.

@Madthings

Thanks, he is a tough gig. Wonderful little boy in lots of ways, but not for everyone in many others. His specialist school is amazing, he’s well looked after there and they really are supportive.

You’re right, we are fortunate that when it’s needed he can respond to instruction. When he doesn’t recognise it as a red line, he often doesn’t respond well at all and we see the resistant behaviours you’re describing - we’re just fortunate it’s not all the time.

Funnily enough we’re currently looking into some tics he’s developed, and Tourette’s is one of the potentials.

I think what’s important though is that as much as it’s easy for parents like us to have these conversations about what our kids will and won’t tolerate - our kids are the anomaly.

Unless I’ve missed it, OP hasn’t said her child has additional need - in which case, conventional parenting really would be the recommendation.

I can accept that I have to draw my lines in a different place for my son, but if he didn’t have the needs he does - not a chance.

My kid was very easy, well behaved and compliant and I wouldn't never say this.

But how would your voice or pictures affect whether someone cleaned their teeth
When you say it isn’t an option how do you make it the only option

I think this idea that children respond to instruction and authority is ok for NT children. But as someone who isn’t NT I really don’t get it. Even after raising 2 ADHD children.

For a few years bathing DD was like bathing a cat. Complete with bites and scratches and wailing. It was happening though. After a while , and a billion distractions (toys, lights, bubbles , bath bombs etc) she kinda gave in, as it was happening anyway and the other stuff was rather entertaining. She didn’t always come out necessarily clean, but needs must.

Not so much of a strategy a whole way of living and coregulating and even with that there are odd days it does not happen. Thankfully rare. But it was years of trying all the suggested typical strategies, punking him down swaddled in a towel as a small child etc and realising it simply was NOT working. Gradually realising cooperative techniques were more successful. Spotting the overwhelm, heading it off. Learning lots of learning.. mine! Despite my job and my experience . He is 10 what is working now may well not continue and pda requires familiarity but also novelty a 'hook' sometimes that can be as simple as a random tangent conversation whilst I load toothbrush others it can take hours of negotiating. I think thats the hardest part about pda the need for novelty whilst also ensuring he doesn't feel demand or get any hint of an ulterior motive.

It is what it is but I am well aware just because we have handle on strategies now we may not at any future point, particularly when dealing with puberty. So I am not going to be so smug as to assume its always going to be a line I am able to hold.

My other kids all cleaned their teeth twice a day btw and usual strategies worked.

Ie star charts,rewards, ignoring negative, praise .. any hint of praise for small means he likely wont do the thing he was raised for again anytime soon because it makes it an expectation and a demand.

It is what it is. We have adapted. I am just aware its not my parenting. Some kids have a nervous system that just responds differently.

Can consistency, clear boundaries, consequences work for plenty of kids, absolutely.. just not all.