I just wouldn’t allow my child to do that… AIBU

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2 very strong willed kids who don’t really care about consequences and can get very emotional - angry, sad, happy just big emotions really. We often find daily life can be a battle especially with the 4 year old (7 year old can be just as bad) not really looking for advice as I’ve read countless threads on the subject so have seen and tried it all but here is where I don’t know if I am being unreasonable (maybe more am I missing something) 4 year old was refusing to brush teeth at bedtime, had to be done not an option especially as she had cake for pudding. Would absolutely not do it and I could hear in my head lovely people off this site saying well I just wouldn’t have that she would have no choice etc and it got me thinking how on earth would you just not have it?? Force her mouth open- absolutely not. Refuse to read her a book- tried, no tv in the morning- tried, calmly explaining why it’s important- tried, shout- tried. She brushed them in the end so not looking for advice more just an answer on if you say I wouldn’t allow that what is it that you do? Not only with teeth brushing but daily life. I think it’s easy to say I wouldn’t allow that when you are the parent of a child who does what they are asked, responds to consequences etc.

And if his life depended on it, would you respect his right to bodily autonomy then? Because until they were mature enough to make decisions on personal grooming, safety and health for themselves I had no problem with laying hands on mine, whether that was to brush teeth, bath or change a nappy age 2, to stop them running into the road (age 3) or to hold down and shove an epipen into my terrified panicking 6 year olds leg.

yes, but it's critical child actually wants the promise and you follow with promise immediately after they done what you asked.

except you have to be pushover

If the main problem is teeth, do them in the bath on a night.

We always manage once a day, in the bath, and he’s not allowed out until they’re done.

That started by being held in the bath until they’d been done, and now he’s old enough to have worked out it’s not negotiable he asks for “teef” when he wants out the bath.

Also, even as a SENd parent, I wouldn’t dream of bribing my child into doing the non-negotiables.

They’re basically the only firm boundaries we have in our house, they’re either boundaries or they’re not. If they are, then bribery doesn’t make that clear enough IMO.

So no marching at all then. Just waiting.

I've marched them to the bathroom a few times, I've sat and waited for them to brush their teeth for probably up to 10 mins but it's never meant sitting there literally all night. They get bored and give in. They soon learn so by 4 theres no issue. What i mean is you've just got to show authority and wait it out as usually they know you mean business as you can wait longer than them! Basically you don't get to play, eat snack, have bedtime story, go to park etc.until they've done the thing you want them to. Definitely less traumatic than forcing their mouths open, forcing them to get dressed etc which I wouldn't do.

If you have a fighter you’d end up drowning them! Solves the problem I suppose but somewhat extreme!

The problem with threads like this is MN do focus on the minutiae of it. It isn’t ’how do I get my child to brush their teeth?’ Its ‘usual strategies are ineffective’ (or indeed counterproductive.)

So yours got bored and gave in. But that’s not all children.

That’s what I and others are trying to explain. It isn’t lack of will from parents or lack of discipline. If you aren’t prepared to use physical force / chastisement (and if you’re physically forcing a resisting child you can hurt them) then you’re pretty stuck.

I have a child who simply would have stayed in until the water was freezing and he would hsve blue lips etc. Doesnt recognise temperatures properly due to introception issues. There definitely were times when he was little I had to do teeth by force but that simply isnt sustainable and doesnt work long term especially as they get bigger.

Bribery would never work in youngest either, nor having a my way or highway approach. What works is conection, pace techniques, humour, playing the long game and having very few non negotiable. Teeth, seatbelt, safety are mine along with or hurting others. If he is so heightened we remove ourselves to stay safe.

Surely most kids would be bored to tears sat in a bathroom for much longer than 10 mins. And if they are in the living room, the TV goes off, toys go away etc until they've gone to bathroom. Sometimes it's a battle of wills but you've got to win (or appear to) and they learn you are in charge. I was quite strict with my two when little bit now they are 7 and 11 and we only have to remind them really gently and off they go now with no issues. Age 4 is a tricky age... We did do a fair bit of waiting when they were 4 😆

2 x strong willed adhd kids here.
I persist until they do it. Some things are non negotiable.
I found writingthe routine up on a white board or picture board helpful.
I have also gone absolutely ape shit scary mum for some things they have done. I have only had to do it a couple of times. Thats for the most serious offences
Mostly if they are being defiant I find out why. Sometimes its something as simple as they dont like the taste of the toothpaste. Or their brush is too hard. Or the socks theybare refusing to put on have a lump in. Which they dont articulate and end up in a tantrum. There is usually a reason and they most likely wont tell you at the time just melt down.
Maybe at a time that is not teeth brushing doen time sit doen and discuss it with her. Ask what she doesnt like about brushing her teeth. Then you can potentially try a differrnt brush or toothpaste or method or whatever it is that shr is finding such an issue.
My youngest had strawberry toothpaste for a few years as he absolutely hated the taste of mint. He grew out of that eventually but had to have his own paste until about age 6.

I assume you mean me 😂

We started doing that when he was a toddler, and keeping him in the bath involved picking him up and putting him in it. Sometimes 10 times before teeth were done and he got out.

Who’s fighting with a toddler?

I’ve got an autistic 9 year old who 2 weeks ago pulled his curtains down, and today ran into the road. He’s cognitively 2.5 years old, and in 13-14 clothes.

I still don’t get parents who are frightened of their own small children. What do people mean their 3 year old “fights” them. They’re 3, how not in charge do you have to be.

People who have not lived the 'hard mode' of parenting a child whose nervous system is wired thus will have a tricky time empathising. Which is a pity.

OP, I know this road and it's wearing and frustrating and unfair, but the only way is through. And through. And through. It's so unlike the parenting journey of caring for more easy-going, compliant DC. I've one of each. I'm a teacher so have no issues with setting boundaries and expectations: my NT DC, whose middle name might as well have been Stubborn, has given me challenges over the years, but firm, responsive parenting has seen us to a good place. My autistic DC has been autonomy-seeking since day 1 and has needed very different parenting. It's just how it is. Entirely disinterested in and unmotivated by consequences (natural or arbitrary) or praise or bribery or encouragement, and living entirely in a nervous system feedback loop, "not allowing" certain behaviours just isn't on the map.

He would now - the stubbornness has really grown as he’s gotten older! I guess we’re lucky that all of the “you’ll get bored before I do” was done very early, so he is complaint with it now.

We only have a handful of absolute no’s too. I only say it when I really, really mean it. They’re all mainly either health related, or safety of him/others related.

Bath, teeth, medicine, aggression of any kind, shouting demands (when he knows how to say them), seatbelts and road safety.

Anything else - often not worth the argument.

If your child is trying to get out of freezing bath water and crying and upset and you’re forcing them back in because they won’t do their teeth, that’s quite an ugly image. I’m not a perfect parent and I’ve lost my temper, said things I didn’t mean, moaned and nagged, but refusing to let a child out of a cold bath? No.

Laughing at the notion of a child that gives in within 10 minutes. My youngest was taken by a friend to shop less than 250m from our house age almost 2, they only got about 100m when he decided he wasnt going anywhere. She ended up on the street corner for over an hour with an immovable child. They were going to shop to buy the child some smarties... nothing worked. He didnt get the smarties. No bribery or choices or consequences made any difference. Now I know its because it was a demand. But at that age I had no clue what was going on with him.

I have regularly been on walks where we have waited in one spot for well over an hour. Bedtime can take hours and hours.

At a hospital appointment for context he required sedatives beforehand still took 3 adults to physically get him there. Then ketamine administered via injection whilst restrained to get him to theatre safely. Even before he woke up from the anesthetic properly he was pulling out ivs, taking off the pulse oximetry etc. Not because he doesnt understand the why, he is an incredibly bright (but spiky profile) child. His pda and personality simply mean he cant comply. Doesnt matter how long you wait.

I do not physically manage his behaviour now unless to keep him safe, but generally safest thing is for everyone else to move. Give space, calm and co regulate.

Some children are just not ever going go be compliant. Others are, I have both.

Some children and their understanding of the world, their processing your communication, is very complex. If you go in with just taking away treats for their non compliance, you are going to get an even bigger problem on your hands.

This: choices and redirect - they feel like they’re getting to choose the ‘after’ activity (which they usually find fun), and you’re redirected their attention and made the toothbrushing choice for them.

With other things, it’s picking your battles. My youngest son would point blank refuse to put a coat on. After many battles and not understanding (me) and frustration on both sides, I realised I could just get him out the house, carry the coat, and then 2 mins after being out in the freezing cold, he’s calmly asking Mummy for his coat… that one took me way too long, but my youngest threw up lots of curve balls that id not had from my eldest!

So pop psych and picking battles is my recommendation!

Why have you made up that the bath is freezing? At no point did I say the bath had gone cold before he got out of it.

Bath time might be an event in other houses, for us it’s a 5-10 minute job. In, washed, teeth done, out. It is without fail at least begrudging, at worst meltdown with bath water all over.

What’s your other solution? Tell an autistic kid they don’t have to have a bath because they don’t like it? Be serious.

Stop making stuff up so you can question our parenting. He has an angry (warm…) bath, brushes his teeth in it, and then goes to bed.

I would argue that not getting him into that disgruntled bath is worse parenting than the alternative.

lol.

i’m not being funny, but my two (one autistic one adhd and autism) would absolutely not get bored to tears after ten minutes. Even at age 2 they could chuck tantrums for 45 minutes and the older they got the more stubborn they got.

The best way to get them to do things was through relationships and connection.

exH once tried to make them do their homework when they didn’t want to. Boy child kicked him in the balls so hard he nearly vomited and had to go and lie down for quite a long time. On the plus side ExH did shut up about how useless a parent I was and how much better he was for about a month….

look, the point of this is that some kids are more compliant than others. If your kid is towards the easy end of the spectrum it’s easy to think it’s your good parenting that has led to the kid being well behaved but it’s a mix of both

if you have a more difficult kid or a disabled kid who doesn’t understand stuff or has sensory issues etc then you can apply the same level of parenting and get a totally different outcome.

I used the aqua fresh app with my DD when she was younger

I google pictures of people missing their teeth and black teeth and show them and tell them they have to brush their teeth or this will happen, but yes I have physically pinned them down and forced a brush into their mouth before.

Another know it all from one mumsnet post… Hi 👋

The point is some children refuse to clean their teeth snd stay in to point the water went cold. Or if you pull the plug out they will stay in an empty bath naked and cold and still not let yoh clean their teeth. Even feom 18 months and under my youngest was so inclined that he could 'refuse' for hours. Ultimately he wsnt refusing it was a CANT because of his pda but obviously as s toddler and until he was about 6? I wasnt aware it was pda. I knew he was autistic but none of the usual strategies worked. What I needed to do was remove demand, focus on connection and coregulation. Lower his threat response and overwhelm.

We settle for baths 2-3 times a week as he hasnt hit puberty yet and we have process. Once he is in he is quite happy as water is regulating. Then getting out can take an age, but he will eventually and so I make sure he has as long as he needs.

My other children also autistic adhd have been much more biddable and compliant. 3 are adults now. 2 older teens.

Some children wont give in no matter how consistent you are. You stated they stay in the bath until teeth are done. For some children that will mean water going cold etc, the fact that bathtime and teeth are done in ten minutes would highlight you dont have a child who isnt compliant. Because even my more compliant and biddable children could refuse for far longer than 10 minutes even at a very young age. They all responded to fairly straightforward strategies and are very adjusted adults. My youngest proved to be a whole different story.

I am aware enough to realise my 'compliant' easier elder children was not just my fabulous parenting much was temperament and their needs etc.

Mine “earns” a reward eg time on his tablet from doing the things he struggles with like brushing his teeth. If he doesn’t do it, he doesn’t get his tablet. I don’t argue with him, if he doesn’t do it I calmly say ok and walk away. When he asks for his tablet he gets told no, because you didn’t brush your teeth but if you brush your teeth you can have it. Calm, unemotional, no getting drawn into arguments. 100% consistent. Repeat the same thing calmly, don’t justify or debate it. Then praise and positive reinforcement when he does it.

Kids want your attention, even if it’s negative attention like telling them off. By keeping very unemotional and stepping away you’re not escalating the situation and reinforcing them by giving them an emotional response, and you’re giving them space to regulate and think things through. The REAL reward is getting your attention and praise when they make the choice to do the difficult task.

When mine does something without being asked I make a point of praising him with words like “wow, thank you for doing that without being asked, that really helped me”. I might throw in a surprise treat like a chocolate bar or a small toy as a reward at unexpected times and say “you’ve really made an effort today so here’s a little surprise to say thank you”. Gradually they learn that doing the task and getting lots of positive attention is much better than not doing it and getting zero attention and having you walk away.