Conflicted after DS hit DD and she fought back and beat him up?

[ForAmpleRobin]

Bit of sibling drama today and I’m not sure if I’m handling it right.

My DD is 9 and my DS is 11. Lately there’s been a bit of tension because she’s actually stronger and faster than him at a lot of things like running and general physical things. DD and my niece have started doing cross country and the girls have been practicing whilst we’ve been out on family walks as well as racing each other. DS is quite competitive and I think it bothers him more than he lets on that DD and his cousin are faster and stronger than him.

They were messing around earlier in the garden doing races and silly “strength competitions” like who can get who on the ground first and DS got increasingly annoyed when DD and DN kept winning. It escalated into him hitting his sister and trying to subdue her but she fought back.
She ended up properly beating him up. DN quickly came and told me about it and then I had to carry him inside and DH took DN home. He is covered in cuts and his bruises are starting to show up.

Obviously I’ve told them that hitting isn’t acceptable, but if I’m being completely honest I also felt proud that she’s confident and doesn’t back down. At the same time I know DS is feeling humiliated by being beaten up by his younger sister and that DN will spread it to the rest of the family. However this would help him learn his lesson!

AIBU for feeling conflicted about this? How would you handle it with both of them? I feel like I don’t know what the best punishment would be? I was thinking of grounding them both for fighting but then DD was in self defence so is it unfair and shall I just ground DS?

Theres no such thing as harmless 'play flighting' its leads to.exactly the situation op describes. One child oummeling another because it does lead to anger and aggression because kids cant regulate their tempers and emotions when young.

It leads to resentment and often fear of a sibling.

@outofofficeagain but play fighting hasn’t worked here has it, no-one has learnt boundaries.

And I do wonder with the level of male violence we see in society whether some of this research is flawed as many men don’t understand boundaries

I’d have stern words with both of them but I doubt you DS will try it again. My DS and DD fought all the time when they were younger it used to drive me mad and a couple of times I’ve had to step in when things got physical.

At the time my DD who is the eldest was a lot taller than her brother. It all stopped pretty abruptly when DS hit puberty and became a lot bigger than her.
They’re both in their 20s and are best mates. No rivalry and they never argue.

I was reading about a report the other day that about 40% of siblings report bullying and about 10% report intense frequent bullying that results in mental health issues.

Only read your posts - you punish both. He is punished for starting a fight and your daughter is told had she just defended herself and got you she wouldnt be punished. She's being punished for excess and extreme use of force. The boy had cuts, from nails or worse?

Maybe her punishment is a little lighter but not much as she's also older,

My brother and I were like this growing up. It got to the point when we were both high school age that my dad had to read us both thr riot act and ban us us from physical altercations of any kind.

My mother grew up in a hideously violent and abusive family. It was completely normalised.

her siblings morphed from beating each other up without consequences to one weekend tying my mother up outside to the fence with a skipping rope and left her there overnight while their parents were away. She was 8. Apparently when she told her mother about it the response was 'well, you probably deserved it'.

Getting the same vibe from the OP. Sibling on sibling violence not only normalised but celebrated.

@GetOffTheCounter your poor mum X

It is very interesting how the words of the one commiting the violence is being taken as gospel.

I feel sorry for the young lad in this.

There’s a difference between play fighting and violence. Not wishing to derail the thread as an unacceptable tolerance of violence seems to be going on here.

However, there have been many studies on this https://colleenadrian.com/https-colleenadrian-com-blog-play-fighting-teaches-empathy-and-resilience/

And https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/aggression/according-experts/play-fighting-during-early-childhood-and-its-role-preventing-later

What would happen if he was irritated by her disappointment that she couldn't succeed at something and she slapped him to disadvantage him?

If the result was that he retaliated by impeding her ability to walk, would you secretly be proud of him? If so and you expressed it in real life, Children's Services would remove her.

Would you stealth boast about your 'secret pride' on a parenting forum about your 'cool mum' credentials if he was 2 years older and had temporarily disabled her?

Going forward, I also think that although your son (and daughter) does need to understand that males and females have different strength potential, she could be very dangerous if she equates strength and speed with violence. She will also be in danger, it is not a good idea to be taught to react in that way. She could be murdered I self defence.

Have you considered that he is reacting to your perception of girls who are very able in this way? It is grossly irresponsible of you to allow these sorts of ideas to take root. If he was better at cooking than she is, would you allow her to internalise the idea that she is inadequate, to the extent that she tried to sabotage his efforts? And then applaud secretly because she'd burned down the kitchen in a fit of childish rage.

They need correcting firmly and compassionately, with your daughter needing to change more than your son, but that is because you have allowed and secretly celebrated whilst your children fell into the roles of victim a
nd abuser.

@outofofficeagain but this incident shows it hasn’t worked in this family. OP has allowed play fighting and neither child has learnt boundaries, instead they have learned violence and using strength.

Many DC have been bullied by siblings (under the term play fighting). How many men who demonstrate male violence were allowed to play fight?

Natural consequences. Assuming you would be equally ok with the idea if your daughter was winding her brother up and he beat her up

yup.

I think this would come under the umbrella of FAFO. He's learnt a valuable lesson in not starting fights he can't finish.

@Balloonhearts would you say the same if the girl had hit the boy first and he then beat her black and blue

It is not that it isn't ideal, it is more that it is unacceptable.
The way to teach men to treat others with respect and to not be violent is to teach them those principles when they are children and protect them from violence while they are children. Same as for women.

What happens if the daughter hits someone bigger than her and they knock her out?

Yes. Don't start fights you can't win. Ideally don't start fights at all.

She didn't hit first. He hit her and she defended herself. If someone is trying to hurt you and you have to take them down, you make good and sure they don't get up for another go.

If she started the fight, I'd say the same. FAFO.

Defending yourself isn’t beating someone up to the point that they are covered in cuts and bruises.

Here in the real world if you beat someone up at school or in life then you’d be expelled from school and/or arrested.

Violence is never the correct way to deal with things and the children wouldn’t have even got into that situation if op had parented properly.

This is her brother, not the final boss in a video game.

You're victim blaming. She was being hit by someone and fought back. She won and he won't be trying it twice.

Thanks. She's 76 now and is traumatised. There has been a fair bit of normalising abuse down the generations to me and my sister also.

It's taken me until my mid 40s to think 'My poor mum'.

She could have walked away and told her mother. She went OTT. He has cuts and bruises