To not want to punish DD during my custody time?

[MummaDelly]

Ex and I have been separated 3 years, DD is just about to turn 7. Custody is 50:50.

DD is overall a lovely child, always great school reports, great feedback from friends families and after school clubs etc. She likes rules and routines and tends to question things and wants to learn and understand.

For me she is great, obviously has the odd issue but doesn’t really tantrum. Can usually talk it through and she listens to reason. I have a chore chart and behaviour chart for her which she loves.

Recently my ex has reported DD has been naughty for him, will talk back or completley
ignore him sometimes. I spoke to her about this and she didn’t really have an answer for why she behaved like that and denied some of his claims. I know how he parents and it is different to me, he changes his mind a lot and on one day a certain behaviour will be funny to him but the next he gets frustrated by it. He will have loads of patience and ask multiple times for her to tidy her room but get annoyed if she leaves her shoes beside the shoe rack.

I offered to chat over the phone about how we can handle this together which he didn’t really seem keen on, I sent him photos of our chore charts etc and offered to print the same for him. I also said we could chat to DD together but again he didn’t really jump at this idea. I think he is a bit defensive of his parenting.

This weekend he had her the whole time and called my on Sunday to say that he had missed his mums birthday thing because DD had refused to get dressed out of her PJs, so they had to stay at home because “I’m not going to wrestle her into clothes, she’s not a baby”…

Next weekend I have plans with my friends, their children and my DD and exH said he had told DD she wasn’t going to go. I said to him that it’s not reasonable to punish her a week later and that I’ve already bought tickets etc and that I hadn’t experienced any of this bad behaviour. He also said that he is not going to renew her gymnastics club for after Easter if she doesn’t start behaving better but that seems really severe to me.

I don’t know how to help or advise him. Maybe I do need to be stricter…? It’s hard because I don’t see this bad behaviour

I have 3 DC, all different personalities and aged almost 7 all of them would have understood needing to dress to go to granny's house or giving the forgotten present at a later date - even my youngest who had SEN would be okay in these situations.

But surely that is because of how you parent and how you would deal with that situation? If he is erratic and lazy in how he parents, (finding something funny one minute, but getting angry about it the next, not listening when she tries to explain something, making demands with no middle ground) surely it is no surprise that he is getting an erratic response from her.. she's not a robot, he needs to model the behaviour he wants at the very least.

And with regards to the forgotten present, I'd be upset if I was her that my dad forgot it in the first place, refused to go and get it, and then instead of taking responsibility for HIS mistake with her and with the party parent (which would have made all the difference IMO), he just pretended to everyone he had done nothing wrong and her mood was down to her 'just being sulky'.

OP may be too far the other way, but he sounds like a shit parent to be honest, I'm all for kids doing as they're told, but that has to be structured in some way, he wants immediate results without putting in any effort whatsoever.

This.

She's already been punished by not being taken to the event with her Grandmother who she always behaves well for, and by feeling her father's resentment all day and being called the reason why he missed the event. He missed the event because HE couldn't manage her or find anyway to get her ready, other than issuing threats. And I'm sure he's probably told her that he's cancelling her class and telling you all about how "bad" she is and that you will be punishing her too. She's six, and trying to cope with moving between two homes.

F* that!

He sounds like an intolerant knee jerk reaction "do what I say or else" kind of person.

Cancelling the whole gymnastics class from now on... seems like an extremely harsh punishment. It gives no incentive for her to be good as it cannot be restored if she's lost her place on the class. Cancelling one lesson, and saying she can go the following week if she behaves would have been more appropriate.

I would also think that he doesn't like going there or paying for it and is using this as an excuse. But what is he going to replace it with?
Sitting at home with her whilst she watches TV? Less effort for him, certainly.

Afterschool fun groups were the highlight of my DC's week and they looked forward to them so much. I would never permanently cancel them, particularly when a five minute chat would have solved the problem. School is hard enough.

Children need activities and exercise and going to a familiar class is probably very helpful for a six year old and a chance to unwind after a long day at school sitting behaving. Something that she really enjoys being taken away permanently is crap parenting IMHO. A punishment that lasts long after the event that caused it.

The problem with having big "punishments" on top of anger and resentment is what comes next when they do something considered even worse?

He has to learn how to encourage his six year old daughter to get dressed without all this fuss and "punishment" (a word I hate) And learn to communicate better with her in the first place.

It might be worth having a chat over what behaviour you would consider to carry over. She’s seven, so it won’t be much, but say she was caught bullying. That’s the sort of thing I’d expect my daughter’s father to carry over. Poor behaviour during his time I wouldn’t. But I would have a chat with her and ask why and explain it isn’t on.

The charts were introduced from an early age, my sister had them for her boys and I had seen them work so DD has had some form of behaviour chart since she was 3. It’s not that I thought she was naughty and needed it. The chore chart was because DD would ask for things and I didn’t want to just give her everything. So it’s a way for her to earn some little treats and also learn how to contribute to the household. She’s not the perfect child, she doesn’t always max out the star charts but she’s a good child and I don’t experience any behaviour to the extent her dad does and it’s not because I just give in to her. Yes we talk about her feelings and yes I allow some compromise when appropriate but I’m not soft but yes admittedly softer than her dad.

I want to discuss with dad and be on the same page, I’m happy to agree on consequences that suit us both and be consistent but it’s hard because dad doesn’t really want to have that conversation. I’m worried that if I push too much for parenting classes or discussions he will completely shut down

I feel like before we were sort of on the same page about this. And if ExH has said DD physically hit out, stole something, bullied someone… I would of course carry over the punishment. There are some behaviours where a longer term consequence is needed and I wouldn’t even hesitate.

OP, may I ask why you separated from your ex-H so quick after your daughter's birth? The issues and inability to agree might stem from this.

My stepchild began to act out really badly with dad and this age - partly because he had always been 'fun dad' and ignored her behaviour and then when she was no longer a cute toddler, he didn't know how to enforce consequences. She tested the boundaries and their relationship massively deteriorated. I am sure for her it was about not wanting to leave her mum's house and stay in a different home with different rules too...and that age where they start to play up to see what you will tolerate. I'd be really clear with your ex that he needs to invest in boundary setting and being consistent now, because my DH and his daughter's relationship has broken down to the extent that she will barely see him now and he is heartbroken (though I did warn him that it would happen if he didn't start seeing that boundaries and consistency make a child feel safe, not inconsistent fun and then losing it when you've had enough of the 'funny' behaviour.)

I think if a generally well behaved child starts acting out, something is wrong and reaching for punishment first is not the way to go. He needs to connect and communicate with her properly if he wants a good long term relationship. I feel sorry for her, the examples you give are things my similarly aged DD would worry about and be anxious about and I wouldn’t dream of being cross with her, behaviour is communication so what is she trying to communicate?

Actually you are right and context is quite important.

The Ex's parenting does seem to be inconsistent and ineffective (I have been back and re-read all the OP's posts as I just skim read earlier)

I think the inconsistency explains why the child is struggling?

I am not sure what the answer is really? I wonder if 50/50 is always going to be the arrangement for the OP?

Ex and I have been separated 3 years, DD is just about to turn 7

First line of first post?

(I admit I was guilty of skim reading the OP's posts at first but even I saw this!!!)

Thank you this is exactly how I feel, taking away her sports would be a last resort for me and I don’t think it’s proportionate to her behaviour.

I really think if he just got down on her level and talked to her then things would go smoother, but it’s hard because I don’t see much of his parenting now so I don’t really know what happens in those scenarios except for that DD isn’t usually like this for anyone else.

DD goes to his mums after school one day a week and I’m going to ask her directly when I pick DD up how she behaves with her and ask for complete honesty. And then explain ex is having a some problems and maybe she can chat to him and offer help as she’s great with the kids. He’s close to his mum and I feel like he will listen to her more than me.

This.

I don’t punish mine for stuff done at his Dad’s house. He parents very differently to me and is very emotionally manipulative and I won’t have it.

That sounds like a good idea. His mom may be able to offer some insight for you both

DD was 3 when we seperated and just 4 when the divorce became official. She doesn’t remember us being together

There was a variety of reasons but the nail in the coffin was the exH had made poor choices and got into debt without telling me and then made more bad choices to cover it up. Unfortunately it all stems from him being a proud man who doesn’t like to ask for help

His mum sounds reasonable and fond of your DD, so that sounds like a really good way forward if she could have a chat with him. Good luck, Im sure you will find a way through this.

Tbh, you seem to be trying to find “loophole” for her not to have been disobedient. She was asked to change. She refused. She needs to know this was wrong in your eyes and his eyes. There shouldn’t be any horse trading on whether she can call PJs, clean or not PJs or whether she can change later.

And this is not a reward chart scenario.

I don’t know how to help or advise him.

You can't, unfortunately.

@Mangelwurzelfortea totally agree, classic Mumsnet! The mental gymnastics to excuse the behaviour of a lazy manchild would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

He can't be arsed to parent consistently and doesn't want to deal with the consequences. Cancelling gymnastics and your outing is an over-reaction to a situation he probably caused and is all to his benefit. I'm intrigued by what you said about her saying what she was wearing before the meal was clean, does that mean nothing else was? Or was he just unspecific about what she should wear? I think you really need to leave her be at this point and start asking him some very specific questions, because at the very least it sounds like he's communicated poorly, at worst he F'd up and is trying to punish her to cover it up. Same goes for the present/party situation. This is a hill I would die on, because if he is scapegoating her, it needs to be called out or it will keep happening.

She clearly responds well to your parenting style OP, so keep doing what you're doing and don't you dare compromise for his comfort. Your daughter is the priority here, he needs to learn to take responsibility for the consequences of his own actions and if he won't listen to your suggestions all you can do is continue to be the safe, consistent space she can return to.

You haven't mentioned why you separated from your DD's dad, but I can hazard a guess. You've created a secure and supportive environment for your DD so she will grow up knowing what that feels like and I really admire you for that.

Totally agree that such big changes in behaviour is the child trying to communicate something. I’ve been doing some googling too and something that came up was a diary for her to write in about how she’s feeling or what she’s thinking. I might chat to dad and see if it’s something we can implement. I think if exH could see her words written down he’d take it in more because in a heated conversation he doesn’t really listen well. And it will also help me understand what’s happening when im not there.

It's not uncommon for kids to behave like this after a divorce. Don't suppose she could have been watching something like the Parent Trap, or anything similar? I had friends who really tried to act up to get their mum and dad back together, and when it didn't work, would try to play each off each other/see what they could get away with. They were a bit older, but friends who work with kids say even younger kids often have issues in similar situations, and quite young kids can try it on, knowing mum won't let dad stop her going to gymnastics, or vice versa.

Consequences shouldn't extend across households with joint custody however, you are condoning the behaviour by not standing untied with your exh.
It is not acceptable for your daughter to misbehave in her dad's care and for you to do nothing about it! I'm sure you would be horrified if she was misbehaving at school and certainly wouldn't just let it go when she came home. I would be mortified to hear that my daughter was playing her dad up. This needs to be nipped in the bud now OP!

Snap! Like you, the final catalyst was a major poor financial decision, which inevitably opened my eyes to all the smaller ones that had happened along the way. Sadly my kids are older so they've had to put up with a lot more, but at least they have each other when they're with him.

Yep, she's allowed to ignore your questions. You aren't her parent.

So what is your suggestion?

I’m not at his house and haven’t experienced this behaviour. So if she doesn’t want to get dressed but he doesn’t want to miss the party then what do you think should have happened?

If he punishes her… I have no issues with that. Make her sit all day bored with no tv and no fun and tell her how disappointed you are (which is what happened). No dessert after dinner, early to bed etc. That’s the punishment and I’m not upset about punishment she experienced that day and I’m not condoning the behaviour.

But if a child is considered well mannered and easy to handle by every other adult expect one person, then it’s showing where the issue is

No, I wouldn’t carry his punishments over onto your time. Certainly regarding a prearranged outing that has nothing to do with him. He needs to find a way of dealing with challenging behaviour before your daughter gets older- if they but heads now it’s going to a war zone when she hits puberty in my experience.