To let my daughter have a seat?

[NeedingAGoodNap]

I was on a tram in Melbourne recently with my 5 year old dd. We both managed to grab seats but the tram soon got busy and some people were standing.

A man, who appeared to be mid 20s, got annoyed that my daughter had a seat when adults were having to stand and was very vocal about this. He felt she should give him her seat!

I absolutely refused, we were on a low floor tram which can be very rocky and often stop very suddenly. My daughter is too short to reach any of the handles and would absolutely go flying if the tram hit the breaks. I also don’t feel like she needs to give her seat to a young adult just because she is a child.

Was I unreasonable to refuse to give him her seat?

That's a good point.
But actually I still think if only 1 ticket has been paid for then 1 seat should be used if it's busy.
Elderly or disabled is a different subject really

Not really.

My 67 year old mum is more capable of standing up on and navigating balance on a bus than my 5 year old is.

Vulnerable people can have a seat on the bus regardless of whether they paid a fare. Anyone else is first come first serve. No reason op should have given up her seat for that guy.

I'd rather small kids were sat. But if have sat her on my knee. Back in the day decades ago I'd have let them have a seat and I'd have stood next them but people are more self absorbed now.

Yes, being elderly or disabled is part of the blanket issue of who needs the seat most. Who has paid the most is a different issue, I agree. I would argue that the question of whether a five year old should get a seat belongs to the former issue, not the latter.

And no one else on this packed tram got involved or told him to leave you alone while he had a 'tantrum' at you about this? Weird.

That's madness. Most men I know at that age would give up their seat for a kid! He sounds ridiculous. Its not like he's an elderly person

Sounds pretty typical to me.

On busy trains, I fold my sons wheelchair so people who get on after that just see a healthy looking 10 year old sat down and several times someone has asked him to stand for them. It is almost always a man, the most recent example was a man who actually rolled his eyes when I explained the wheelchair belongs to him so he needs to sit down after he demanded my son stand up for him. Others usually simply ignore what is going on.

If payment of full fare is key here, should we make all pensioners stand on public transport?

You acted appropriately, Op.
If an older, pregnant or sickly person were to have needed the seat, I would have left DD seated safely while I stood.

OP wrote this guy was having a tantrum, though. Not inaudibly rolling his eyes.

YABU your daughter should have sat on your knee.

On the tube in London, adults regularly give up their seats for young children.

Why is an adult’s comfort more important than a child’s? The child was there first. No way I’d get my child to get up for an able-bodied adult. I’d have put her on my lap if he was polite but if he was rude like OP says she’d be staying in her seat, party cos I wouldn’t want him anywhere near me.

All this ‘respect your elders’ crap is a load of bollocks. Respect everyone until they give you a reason not to. This man did nothing to deserve any respect. You realise that this whole attitude that children must always respect adults, has contributed to many children staying quiet about child abuse.

What are the terms and conditions of the ticket? Usually if its a child's fare it doesn't entitle them Tom seat if adults are standing.

I think you should give up your seat for someone who needs it more. A 5 year old child certainly needs a seat more than a young man. Kids don't have great balance and are often too small to hold on properly anyway. If he had a reason why he couldn't stand he should have said so rather than make nonsense rules like kids need to stand up for adults. If I'm travelling with my kids and I see someone who needs a seat I either put one of the kids on my lap or offer them my seat.

I remember when i was a child lots of adults offered me their seat or sometimes they offered for me to sit on their lap. I usually didn't accept but it was nice of them to offer.

He’s being entitled. On a packed rush hour train I will sometimes give my seat to a youngster if I can tell they will or are struggling. I’ve never had a parent object. However I’ve also failed to give up my seat to someone who looks like they need it until I feel able and that might mean nearing the end of my journey as my own condition can sometimes be bad and I would be struggling myself. I don’t think anyone should feel entitled.

Put her on your lap. I think it’s dangerous for children to stand on most public transport, but equally 5 is small enough for a lap.

I used to catch a Northern Line train at roughly the same time every day with a mother and 6/7 year old. It was incredible how few times the child was offered a seat even though he was so unsteady and bashing into people and somehow ALWAYS in front of the door. If I ever managed to get a seat, I’d wave them over. I probably seemed kind but I actually found the child annoying not in a seat! 😅

If it was someone who needed seat, sure, but not some ablebodied guy! Esp if he was nasty about it.

Yanbu. And as for people saying just put her on your lap, it’s not always that simple. My DD has Autism and her sitting on my knee is not an option. My older children would have sat on my knee and yes I would have popped them on my knee if I felt it was necessary and if the person asked nicely and used their manners so maybe not in this man’s case. But not my DD - her disability affects her ability to understand certain things and I won’t put her under any distress. It’s her seat and she wants to sit on it.

A 9 year old is too big to be on a lap

I presume a ticket needs to be purchased for a child of 5? In that case they are just as entitled to a seat (not a lap) as anyone else.
The man had no more right to ask the child for the seat than to ask any other passenger. Unless he had a hidden disability, I think he was being a dick!

There used to be a woman on my tube who I saw every day when I worked in the London office. She always made a big deal of insisting her 4 year old boy got a seat. He'd then proceed to clamber all over the seat and jump up and down on it. Perfectly healthy kid. Entitled mother was all.

Another woman I saw once on the bus in Chelsea felt that her two young kids needed a seat and proceeded to scream like a fishwife at all of us on the bus about how her kids deserved to sit down, and how evil we all were. Even her kids were telling her to be quiet.

In all cases the kids easily could have stood. In the tube case, he could have sat on his mum's lap.

Unless the guy on your tram had a hidden illness, then no he didn't deserve your child's seat. But he should have said, if so. I will always get up for elderly or pregnant people without a second's hesitation. (although one very old lady told me to fuck off once when I got up for her).

and it still wouldn't surprise me if others simply ignored it because they don't want to get involved.

That's how it tends to be on public transport. With a wheelchair, I have it quite often when we're on it with seats on trains like my recent situation or wheelchair spaces with pushchairs.

Are kids just less able now, due to less physical activity?
Mine all stood from an early age. Apart from anything else they enjoyed it. We have vertical poles though, so easy for them to hang on. They particularly liked standing with one foot on each side of the curvy area that moves- that was fascinating.
Generally my kids were likely to be less tired, wearing very comfortable shoes, agile, less likely to hurt themselves or anyone else if they did fall. Plus I was poised to grab anyone that looked unsteady. They can also stand next to you leaning on you, with your arm around them. Totally safe.

The only thing I worried about was them getting swept along when it was crowded. But I’d corale (corralle?) them in when we approached a stop.

Yes I was taught this as a kid, and so were all my friends. We were also taught to stand up in class as soon as any adult walked into the room.