To let my daughter have a seat?

[NeedingAGoodNap]

I was on a tram in Melbourne recently with my 5 year old dd. We both managed to grab seats but the tram soon got busy and some people were standing.

A man, who appeared to be mid 20s, got annoyed that my daughter had a seat when adults were having to stand and was very vocal about this. He felt she should give him her seat!

I absolutely refused, we were on a low floor tram which can be very rocky and often stop very suddenly. My daughter is too short to reach any of the handles and would absolutely go flying if the tram hit the breaks. I also don’t feel like she needs to give her seat to a young adult just because she is a child.

Was I unreasonable to refuse to give him her seat?

This

Yes you are unreasonable. Why couldn’t your child sit on your lap?

OP didn't say where she was in Melbourne but in the CBD trams are free for everyone - so does that mean nobody should take a seat?

Rude

OP could well have had piles of shopping on her lap. She would have caused an obstruction if she had stuff on the floor.

If you read her later post its because there wasn't space due to a barrier in front of the seat. Not sure when you were last on a Melbourne tram but there are plenty of seats where you couldn't fit an average 5 year old on your lap.

I’d just sit my 5 year old in my lap in this situation.

Definitely wouldn't have made her stand but as others have said, she'd 100% have been on my knee

Edit because I've seen youce said she couldn't fit on your knee.
So no, she should not have to give up her seat.

Why??

Why does ‘good manners’ have to involve an adult being more important than a child? I’m not bringing up my dc to believe that they are lesser than anyone else, adult or child, or to believe that all adults must automatically be respected. This attitude is ridiculously outdated and can actually be harmful sometimes.

We have a different view on what constitutes good manners.

But can you explain why you think having good manners (rather than it just being a kind thing to do) means giving up something that is yours to someone else that they don’t really need?

I did. I gave a bunch of reason.

In a busy tram, I would sit the child on my lap sideways so legs in the aisle and shopping under her legs, or I would let her sit with the shopping and I would stand.

I would give the seat up for someone else- particularly if they asked. You say they were young, but they may have had a hidden disability. It's rare for someone to ask.

Why is it good manners? Good manners should be mutual, not hierarchical.

Young legs doesn't mean better legs, a person in their 20s is easily as strong or stronger than a person in their teens and much stronger than a 5 year old.
An adult can also technically sit on a knee, but not comfortably. Except for very young children (<2) it's uncomfortable for both adult and child.

It works both ways though, doesn't it? Children can have hidden disabilities too.

Of course. But the OP didn't mention this did she?

The point is that the man demanding a child's seat isn't going to know about any potential disability any more than OP did about the man.

I'm assuming OP and her child weren't sat in any priority seating for disabled/elderly etc if any such seating exists on these trams.

Such seating does exist on these trams.

the OP hasn't mentioned a disability on her side or that of her child- and don't you think she would have on this chat...because that would change things wouldn't it? she has assumed the person was young and able bodied. 'demanded' could be "asked'. She has made all sorts of assumptions. I'm just offering a different view.

It's not that deep.

No the reasons you gave were either inaccurate or describe someone being kind: “they can sit on a knee” is being kind because it’s inconvenient and uncomfortable for the child & the mother (who may have a bunch of bags etc with her) for a 5 yo child to sit on her lap for any extended journey, so offering the seat, which was her’s to begin with, to someone who has no real need to sit down, is a kind thing to do, as it’s inconveniencing the person doing it. That’s not the same as having good manners. Having ‘younger legs’ is inaccurate because a 20 something man has far stronger legs that get tired far less quickly than a 5 year old’s legs. He can also steady himself and reach the hand holds much more easily.

Good manners is saying please and thank you and being polite. It is not putting someone else’s needs above your own simply because they are a self-important adult and you are an ‘insignificant’ child. I would not want to teach my child that their needs & comfort are less important than a rude, entitled grown man

I’ve experienced that the most considerate practice on public transport, is for the child to sit on the parent’s lap, if other adults are standing and space is limited—especially if someone elderly or vulnerable is present, remembering always that there are hidden disabilities. Maybe that person was unwell and their day had been a horror show. It’s a real life example to show children how kindness matters too.

But again, the man didn't know either and that is my point.

The most likely scenario unless they were in priority seats is that he simply felt more entitled to sit down than OP's child.

OP hasn't made any more assumptions than the man, to be fair. She assumed he is able bodied with no hidden disabilities as did he with both OP and her child.

So tiresome.

She knew about her and her daughter. So she had a choice at that point. I'm saying I would have erred on side of caution and would have assumed if he asked, there must be something behind that. She assumed he was being demanding and above her daughter.

That's it. Not deep.

Can people please stop with the sit the child on the parent's lap business because the OP has explained why this isn't possible.

If the team is packed and the child is small enough to sit on your knee, then they should do that to free up a seat