To let my daughter have a seat?

[NeedingAGoodNap]

I was on a tram in Melbourne recently with my 5 year old dd. We both managed to grab seats but the tram soon got busy and some people were standing.

A man, who appeared to be mid 20s, got annoyed that my daughter had a seat when adults were having to stand and was very vocal about this. He felt she should give him her seat!

I absolutely refused, we were on a low floor tram which can be very rocky and often stop very suddenly. My daughter is too short to reach any of the handles and would absolutely go flying if the tram hit the breaks. I also don’t feel like she needs to give her seat to a young adult just because she is a child.

Was I unreasonable to refuse to give him her seat?

On a busy tube I used to let my child sit and I would stand, they can't balance and there isn't always a rail low. Once over about 9 I let them stand so yanb to me

I am not twisting it, I am disagreeing with you.

An adult accompanying a child is not less entitled to a seat, simply because the child has a seat themselves.

It's a shame if parents feel they have to give up their own seat to another adult, I think it's wrong and it's a good thing that mentalities are changing. Parents are not second-class citizens.

I had this issue on the underground. My daughter was 7 and I have pelvic / leg issues so It would have hurt to have her on my lap.

A man made a beeline to me despite other seats being available He was saying that she was a non fare paying passenger so he was entitled to her seat.

Thankfully a older lady who was a Londoner intervened and told him to leave us alone. It felt very intimidating.

I found it hard to find something to hang onto on the Melbourne trams even when I was 10 and took the tram down Royal Parade - back when my parents could afford to live in Brunswick on an average salary. They do pick up speed on the straight sections. He's a complete dick.

Different hemisphere here so not sure it's the same but as my kids don't pay on the The Tube I tend not to let them take seats if we are on a busy Tube (little one sits on my lap or I stand and both DC share a seat or we all stand).

There was no need for the man to be rude at all but in this situation - IE busy - I'd have probably given my child my seat, got them to hold bag and stood myself.

kids are commuters too 😂

I've also noticed in London that more and more people offer a seat to young children. It's a jungle in London public transports, but you can still find decent people.

To be fair, when I was obviously pregnant, it's always young and middle-age men who offered me their seat.

As I say I often give up seat/s (I always have a least 2 DC with me on the Tube) and I don't wait to be asked.

However I do find that a) people often tell the kids to keep the seat when we offer it or b) someone else will offer their seat so the kids can keep sitting or c) If my kids do give up the seat they soon get one back as someone will get up for them.

But as standard I don't let me two non paying DC take up seats on busy Tubes.

I wouldn't take kindly to be asking rudely though! And the fact there were other seats prove this particular man just wanted to have a go. Arsehole!

In the 10 years since I was doing this I do think people have got more entitled. I had to get quite "middle aged bossy lady" at rush hour a few weeks ago to help a disabled older lady on crutches access one of the priority seats.

And this is my general point - that if a 5 year old is not shown occasionally that it's OK to move over, sot on a parent's lap to let someone else sit down (maybe not a healthy man in his 20s though!) then how will she know at 14 or 25 - or even - 50 - that she needs to look about her on public transport, and consider others' needs.

If we don't model this behaviour when they're little, but instead stand on our "rights" then the 14 year olds who push in front of everyone to get on the bus after school (Birmingham teenagers, I'm looking at you) will do this with never a thought about others.

I've stopped offering my seat (I'm 67) but really only in the last couple of years (I still pay my bus fare as I"m still working), but I still offer my seat to elderly women and men. Not to a child though.

simply because 5 is too young, and you start by doing it when they are older, and you also show them the example. Kid stay in seat, but YOU - the fit and healthy adult - give your seat to an elderly or injured person.

A 14 or 18 or 25 yo are just as entitled as a seat as a 50 or 60 yo.

Absolutely no reason why an able-bodied adult, man or woman, should get a seat at the expense of a 5-year-old.

I don't mind children having seats on public transport but I do mind children occupying seats then not actually sitting in them, when other people who are standing could use them. I often see children standing on or in front of their seat or messing about in the aisles; when there are people standing who are desperate for a bit of a rest.

I don't think (healthy) children should be exempt from standing to allow frail or disabled people to sit, either.

Your response is perfect actually. "Here, perfectly healthy young man, have my seat." Hopefully he would be suitably mortified.

A 14 or 18 or 25 yo are just as entitled as a seat as a 50 or 60 yo.

They're really not, unless they have a physical disability. Wait till you're 60.

The fare argument shouldn’t come into it.

Are you saying that in most UK transport where a 5 year old is charged a fare, that gives them more right for a seat?

Pensioners don’t pay for a seat. Should they stand? A 5 year old won’t have any more capability to navigate balance while standing on transport around sharp corners or for sudden stops.

In op’s scenario, the parent could have got up and given her seat to another vulnerable passenger. But no reason for her to give it to an able-bodied young man. She got there first.

20 year old should get a grip. I was also on a tram in Melbourne wirh my kids on the weekend, and if the op was sitting somewhere she couldn’t fit her on her lap then yes the 5yo gets a seat over a healthy adult. Trams jolt a lot. My 7yo refused to sit down and I was quite worried he was going to be thrown on top of someone. I had my just turned 4yo on my lap and she is pretty big to sit on your lap for a while, it wasn’t comfortable and 5 would be uncomfortable. I don’t see 20 year old happily making himself uncomfortable for other healthy adults convenience.

This last line is a lot of what’s wrong with people today. Let’s see if you feel that way at 60.

Of course your 5 year old should have a seat. Tough shit he didn't have a seat. You got there first, why should a child give up a seat for a perfectly abled body man?! ridiculously entitled.

I think putting her on your lap could have been considerate depending on the seat, space and size of DD. And i would have made more effort to do this if someone standing politely told me they had a disability or issue that made it uncomfortable for them to stand.

But I think at 5 her travel is paid for too and well 1st come 1st served. Shes under no obligation to Gibraltar up her seat.. but id have ignored the man

Did she pay full fare. If not then she should have given her seat to an adult.

There's no need to keep telling me why a child needs a seat. I've never disputed that, so it's a straw man. I'm saying that where the parent pays for one seat, it's good manners not to take up two when it's so busy other paying adults are standing.
People with concessionary travel due to age or disability would typically, like a young child, have greater need for a seat, so no, they wouldn't be expected to stand.
We're clearly not going to agree on this as we obviously have different ideas of consideration for others. I'm coming at this from what I did as a parent to be considerate of other passengers, because expecting a random person to stand while I took two seats for me and my child while only paying for one didn't feel polite to me.

Why couldn't you stand? I always prioritised my kids sitting instead of me.
I didn't like then on my lap at that age as it hurt my stomach and IBS. I was happy to stand.

No she shouldn't, if they allow her on for free that that's down to the buisness, take it up with them if you dont like their policy but everyone on there free or paying is entitled to a seat if one is available.

Why should the OP stand so a able bodied man whos just moaning could have a seat? They are both equally entitled to that seat. She was there first.

Does that apply to elderly people who don't pay?