Enjoying quiet drink & elder man approaches

[IndigoBluey]

I had a much needed free and solo afternoon today. Went for a long walk in the sun, coffee, just enjoyed being by myself for once. I was keen to see the rugby score and so stopped off for a drink in a local pub by myself. I am a 34 year old woman. It was such a fun atmosphere. Until, an older guy, maybe 70 saddled up to my table and started to engage in chat. I wasn’t in the mood, I was really keen to watch the match and this was the final ten minutes. He asked a few questions and when I didn’t answer he just stood right by me where I was sat down looking and smiling. I felt really awkward and aware that others in the pub were looking now. He then asked my name and I quite directly told him I just want to watch the match. He then left in a huff. I felt a little bad after, thinking maybe I was rude and worse, he was lonely and wanted some chat but then there were other older men on their own standing at the bar so he could have chatted with them. Anyway off he went and I left after the match ended about 15 minutes later to walk home and saw him on the corner of the street five minutes along, fine as it it a small town but awkward as he clocked me. Was I rude or is it fine to say no thanks to chat to random people

Yes, it's such a revealing set of posts. Internalised misogyny, right there on the page. It seems to stem from loneliness, and anger that women have let her down or hurt her in the past. It's easier to blame women as a sex class - because everyone is societally trained to blame women, including women - rather than see how you might have contributed to your female friendships going wrong.

Similar to men really: when they can't get dates/romantic relationships with women, rather than read the ample and very informative literature written by women on dating, these guys charge to the manosphere, which is filled with other men who can't get dates. So they learn about utter silliness such as 6666 and Chads and Alphas and PUA, and they get all hyped up about how shit women are and how you have to trick them to grab what you want from them. And women can smell these predatory arses a mile off, so these guys get nowhere in terms of finding a partner who loves them and wants to share her life with them.

It all stems from patriarchy, misogyny, and reflexive scapegoating of women for everything that goes wrong.

Maybe ask yourself why that is.

women are raised, socially expected to be ‘ladylike’ - polite, compliant, friendly, to except the advances of men politely.
We also learn through experiences that when we aren’t those things men will call us stuck up bitches or say ‘Christ I was ONLY being friendly!’ Followed by some degrading or belittling comment. And everyone else agrees that she should have just been polite.
if it was the other way round though the woman be be labelled mental or needy or again some other insult.
Women no longer need to put up with this behaviour from men,
The standing over, putting his coat over the back of her chair… all meant to be intimidating!

I'd certainly be concerned if I were an unattractive man.
There's such a thing as the halo effect where good-looking people (not just men, women too) get given the benefit of the doubt over things uglier people get grief over.

So in the case of an ugly, too old guy politely asking a woman for a drink he may get grief for it, but if a younger, hot guy were to ask with the same level of politeness and respect he'd either be told yes or turned down in a more considerate manner as in "thanks for asking but (insert reason)".
Yet they've asked the same thing in the same way.

Probably going to be told I'm wrong. Well argue with the psychologists who've observed and well documented this phenomenon not me.

For balance, good looking women get given the benefit of the doubt, too.

Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't invent human nature.

I'd certainly be concerned if I were an unattractive man.

You'd be scared would you? What utter crap.

Scared? No. Concerned? Yes.

What would you be concerned about? Rejection? Surely you understand that any social overture might not be accepted o matter what way you look. Are you afraid you'd be arrested for talking to a woman while ugly? Or smacked by a woman for talking to her while ugly? I'm here to reassure you that this would not happen.

Poor ugly men, can’t even be creepy fuckers anymore.

GOOD. Hopefully this will turn into fear and consternation and then finally we can have gender equality 🤘

Maybe when men can finally empathise with what women go through they'd be actually prompted to change their sleazy behaviour

I think you're being disingenuous. I really do.
Because of the (well researched, well documented) halo effect good-looking people get given the benefit of the doubt more than unattractive people.

Of course good-looking men get rejected by women (for various reasons) when they try to chat them up but because of the halo effect their behaviour is far less likely to be labelled as creepy than an ugly guy who does even if everything else about talking to the woman is the same as the attractive guy.

This applies to women, too, of course. Attractive woman commits a terrible crime, unattractive woman commits same crime.
Guess which one gets more understanding and excuses made for her?

So it's not about being scared, it's about not wanting to be labelled a creep while the good-looking guy gets the 'well can' t blame him for trying' line.

No disrespect meant here but the halo effect is a well-documented phenomenon and I'm not going to listen to a random person on the Internet telling me it's not true.

It's not fair, it's not right but it is what it is.

Eh? I'm not a bloke.

What does this have to do with OP’s situation?

I know right? this conversation has become so silly.

I think you're being disingenuous. I really do.
Because of the (well researched, well documented) halo effect good-looking people get given the benefit of the doubt more than unattractive people.

Oh you'd be scared of not being given the benefit of the doubt (and maybe a bit envious of the better looking man who would be treated a little bit more politely) Got it. Not sure I'd waste much of my headspace on that if I were a man but you obviously have other priorities.

No but you'd realise that you couldn't trust women because they don't judge men on what they do but on how they look and that would affect your interactions with them.
Disclaimer: That is if the halo effect is true of course.

WTF are you going on about - why would men need to be worried about "trusting" women? trusting women to do what? Men arent the ones getting battered and killed on the regular by the opposite sex are they? women are.

Also, are you suggesting that if a woman is sexually assaulted or raped by a conventionally attractive man that it wont bother her, it wont traumatise her or she wont go to the police about it because thats horribly offensive.

'Women don't judge men on what they do but how they look'

Anyone else think this view sounds a bit incel adjacent?

Yes, and unfortunately, that poster has completely misunderstood the halo effect and its various nuances which is not surprising so it might also just be ignorance on their part.

The halo effect is real, but research on harassment and creepiness shows behaviour matters much more than looks. Studies by psychologists like Peter Glick and Susan Fiske found that persistence after rejection was still judged negatively even when the man was attractive.

Research on “creepiness” by Frank McAndrew also shows people label behaviour creepy when it violates social norms or creates uncertainty so things like hovering, staring, or ignoring cues to leave. So, attractiveness might influence first impressions, but it doesn’t override behaviour.

(My first degree was in social psychology)

What in the blazes does the halo effect have to do with the OP, Quint?

Creepy bloke hovers over her, tries to stake a claim to her space with his coat and doesn't follow the crystal clear social cues. Who gives a stuff whether he's got good cheekbones or not? He trespasses over her boundaries and therefore is a creep.

Thanks for the considered response but my examples do not include men who persist after rejection.
They are about two respectful men who leave the woman alone after being told no. One of whom is ugly, the other is good-looking.

I do appreciate that it's downright creepy IF they hang around after being told to go away regardless of what they look like.

If both men have in fact been rejected then why would the ugly one be so upset then?

Yes, this is particularly incel-like. Which makes sense.

And people who make ludicrous sweeping statements like this are really just projecting who they themselves are, namely, the ones who care a ton about looks.

women are raised, socially expected to be ‘ladylike’ - polite, compliant, friendly, to except the advances of men politely.

I haven't been though. Except to respect my elders in general (that's definitely a dying tradition these days) surely everyone is raised to be polite to everyone?

I mean he's a person he's not just a bit of dirt on your shoe. If women did the approaching would you be fine with a bloke telling you to "sling your hook" or whatever? It's just basic respect for other people, nothing about bowing down to male entitlement to debase yourself by being polite. I'm only ever rude to someone who is rude to me first so I'd probably react the same way as a bloke if I put myself out to be friendly to another woman and got a rude reply.

The standing over, putting his coat over the back of her chair… all meant to be intimidating!

I wouldn't like that for sure.