School refusing 3 days off for DS AIBU

[BaronPencil]

I suspect I am going to get flamed for this but I genuinely do not know what the right call is.

DS is 14, 15 in the summer, and he hates school. Not in a mild way, he actively resents it. Says it is pointless, says most of the boys mess about anyway but he gets picked up more because he answers back. There is probably some truth in that but he absolutely does not help himself.

He is basically on his last warning behaviour wise. We have had meetings with head of year and deputy head. They have used phrases like final chance, serious concerns about attitude, risk of not being invited back next year if there is no improvement. So yes, thin ice is putting it mildly.

Behaviour issues include:

Constant low level disruption
Talking when teacher is talking
Refusing to move seats when asked
Eye rolling and muttering under his breath
Not handing homework in repeatedly
Detentions for not turning up to detentions
Once told a teacher “this is why no one takes this subject seriously”

There was also an incident last year where he made some stupid misogynistic comments in class about girls being “too emotional” for leadership which got him into a huge amount of trouble. He swears he was joking but it was not funny and I was absolutely furious with him. School took it very seriously. Since then they have him firmly labelled as a problem child I think.

He is not SEN. There is no diagnosis, no learning issue. He just does not like being told what to do and he is not a straight A academic star which I sometimes think is what this particular school really values above everything else. He is capable of good grades but only when he feels like it which is not often.

The only area where he has ever been consistently positive is drama.

He got into acting at 12 through the school drama club. Completely by accident really, a friend dragged him along. He got a part in the school production and something just switched. Teachers were emailing saying how focused he was in rehearsals, how supportive of other cast members. It was like reading about someone else.

We then enrolled him in a local theatre group and he loves it. Properly loves it. He will practise accents in his bedroom, watch performances online, ask for feedback. It is the only thing he puts real effort into without being nagged.

Now he has been cast in a proper local theatre production. Rehearsals are evenings and weekends so that has not interfered with school at all.

But the performances include three weekday matinees in the last week before Easter holidays. So he would miss three full days right before they break up.

His attendance is currently 95 percent. But he is absolutely on his last warning behaviour wise.

I emailed school explaining the opportunity and asking if the absence could be authorised given it is a legitimate production and not just a random day off. I did mention that drama is the only area where he truly excels and that this could be positive for him.

Reply was very clear. No authorised absence for external activities. Policy is policy. If we keep him off it will be recorded as unauthorised absence and may be considered alongside his existing behaviour record.

I did ask whether there was any discretion given it is the last week before holidays and most of the academic content is winding down (yes I know that sounds dismissive). They said learning continues until the final day and expectations apply to all pupils equally.

DS’s view is blunt. He says acting is the only thing he is actually good at and the only reason he bothers trying at anything. He says if we make him miss it we are proving that school matters more to us than he does. He also says school already think he is a lost cause so what difference will three days make.

Part of me thinks he has not exactly earned special favours given his attitude. If anything he should be bending over backwards to show compliance right now not asking for time off. I can already hear people saying natural consequences and maybe that is fair.

But another part of me thinks if the one thing that genuinely motivates him is acting then why would we squash that, especially when school itself introduced him to it in the first place.

We pay a lot for this school because we wanted structure and high standards. I just did not anticipate feeling like the only area my son shines would be treated as irrelevant.

So AIBU to think they could show flexibility even though he is on his last warning and hardly model pupil of the year? Or is this exactly the kind of situation where the answer has to be no because of his behaviour record.

HT and Senco here.

1. Sounds as if he may well have ADHD so worh getting assessed.
2. I'd have authorised the 3 days and called Educated off Site.
3. Even if he has ADHD, he needs to learn accountability in order to succeed as an adult, so stop excusing his behaviour and instead learn strategies to help him.
4. Many famous actors/ entertainers are not NT- it can be a strength. But channelled appropriately. Why not see if he's good enough to get into drama school?

Good luck.

The ADHD questionnaire the person posted was an adult based one.

If you go to this link and download ADHD V Home Version (Young Person 11-16 yrs) this is the closest I could find online to the one that CAMHS gave me for DD1.

https://www.mymind.org.uk/services-and-contacts/cheshire-services/cheshire-adhd-autism-services/adhd-questionnaires

This place looks like a comprehensive service.

https://www.camadhd.co.uk/

TBH if he is on a final warning for behaviour expecting the school to co operate with his wishes is unreasonable- if you get what you want anyway what is the point of behaving?

The downside of making drama his whole life is there's no guarantee of a career at the end of it. If he wants any chance at a normal job, he needs a rounded education.

Even if he does successfully become an actor, he's going to have to buck his ideas up, because if he starts messing around in rehearsals or on set whenever things aren't going his way (which seems to be his approach to school), he's going to very quickly find that nobody wants to work with him. And people wanting to work with you is absolutely central in acting.

I would have him assessed by an Ed psych so you know his true potential - it would pick up dyslexia and point to anything like autism, adhd. We did this with my younger daughter, who wasn't performing well at primary though no one could really identify why.

As your son is in the private sector, the chances are that no one there properly understands what could be holding him back, and they don't have the resources to get him assessed for anything either.

He could be mucking about because he doesn't understand half of what is going on for example. My daughter turned out to have huge problems with receptive language - we had no idea. She also had visual processing problems, where lines of words and tables would swim in front of her and she couldn't decode them.

We had her assessed in school also by a Speech and Language therapist. Our daughter was making significant social skills errors - school thought she was a bit annoying but didn't understand. She needed more help than others in understanding social norms.

Anyway, she was diagnosed with PDA. I wondered if you had heard of it? I am absolutely not trying to diagnose your son, but it comes to mind because people with PDA respond very badly to direct demands, which includes school work, and they love role playing, and are often gifted actors. It is autistic spectrum but known as the "social autism,".

True, but lots of young people benefit from activities that won’t directly lead to employment. If he sticks at this, he’ll learn teamwork, punctuality, about the different professions involved in theatre, about ideas and imagination and loads more.

OTOH the school is assessed on attendance and can’t be expected to give a big “whatever” because one of their pupils would rather be doing something else.

The OP hasn't represented the situation correctly. Maybe she hadn't fully understood the implications of child licensing law. But it's been pointed out multiple times by some very knowledgeable posters, and still two-thirds of posters are ignoring it. (And it isn't the theatre that requires it - it's the LA, but there are potential criminal sanctions for those in charge of the theatre if they think they can just let him perform anyway).

To those saying 'tell the school to sign the license' - nobody has any power to do this. The school can refuse to consent if they want. That's their right.

OP - if you're still reading, I would contact the Children in Entertainment and Education dept (or whatever your LA calls it) and try to speak to the person responsible for your son's license application. Ask them under what circumstances they'd be willing to override the school's refusal. Are there any assurances you could give them that would help? But keep your expectations low. I live between two LAs - one of them just might be willing to override the school, and the other, not a chance. So much depends on who's in charge. And talk to your son about this - child performers have to be absolutely clued-up about the power the LA has over their lives in this respect, and your son has more than a year to go before he ages out of the requirements.

I said up-thread that another option might be to withdraw him from school. But on reflection, I think this is risky - the LA might not view it favourably, and you'd be required to demonstrate how you're going to ensure his education is unaffected if he takes part. There might be too little time left - licenses take surprisingly long to turn around, and you're risking ending up in the situation in which the license is granted, too late for him to perform.

To those saying he shouldn't let the production down - he doesn't have a choice, and nor do they. But it's the theatre's job to also be clued-up about the legislative framework around underage performers. If his license status is in doubt, they need to have a Plan B, who is aged 17 and not subject to this.

Editing to add your time frame is really very tight, and I'd be getting on the phone today.

It’s a high bar to expect kids to understand and control their emotions well enough to consistently tread the line between assertive and asshole.

Most children manage it, particularly girls. The OP's DS is disrupting his peers' education, and insulting them into the bargain.

I've no doubt that the theatre could be the saving of this lad. But there is no urgency - the show that he's have to miss school for won't be the only show he'll ever have the chance to do. This show is NOT the be all and end all, although the OP & other posters would like to present it as such. A career is a long thing with a lot of ups & downs.

At the moment, his behaviour needs sorting out - by which I mean, the OP and her DH need to get to the bottom of why he's so disrespectful and rude. That is the priority, and he shouldn't be rewarded for bad behaviour.

That doesn't mean taking away his theatre activities altogether. He needs to show proper commitment & resilience in the face of setbacks.

The other things that @BaronPencil could do is to start him with singing and dance classes - he needs to learn these difficult but necessary skills for a career (and not at a ghastly Stagecoach school - a proper pre-pro dance school, and proper vocal tutor). And application to this technical training would show he's prepared to put in the hard work & discipline.

This

Can I just ask why so many people are saying "let him do the play and then if the school throw him out you can put him in a state school.
Is it OK for "state school" kids to have to put up with:

Constant low level disruption
Talking when teacher is talking
Refusing to move seats when asked
Eye rolling and muttering under his breath
Not handing homework in repeatedly
Detentions for not turning up to detentions
Once told a teacher “this is why no one takes this subject seriously”
There was also an incident last year where he made some stupid misogynistic comments in class about girls being “too emotional” for leadership which got him into a huge amount of trouble.

"It's OK he's only disrupting the Oiks now".

I think the point is OP is wasting her money

The second point is the school have implied (although unclear how much) that if he misses school for this, it will be added to the list of concerns they have about him, in a negative way they see the committment to doing this equals a lack of commitment to the school

That would then leave inevitably, if they wish, for him to be excluded and therefore he would have to go to a different school

So posters are making the point, 'ok, let that happen then'.

Thats not the same as saying state schools should have all the shitty pupils.

I would maintain what I said earlier which is that he needs to go to drama school/stage school. Or be home educated and OP focus on getting him more dramatic exposure.

It doesn't seem to me as if you feel you gave any power, here. That absolutely has to change as ge is,exploiting your weakness to do as ge pleases.

I would have been leveraging his love of drama, to get him to toe the line at school. If he doesn't up his game, tell him this is the last production he will be in. I'd also be curtailing phone usage and any other privileges he currently enjoys.

Don't listen to his emotional blackmail either. You can sit him down for a proper talk, his willingness to take part having a direct impact on whether you will allow him the three days off.

He needs to learn the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" lesson - and fast. If he wants to do drama, he has to do school and do it well.

Finally, if he doesn't buck up, put him back into mainstream, where he can either sink or swim. And if he decides on the sink course, then stop the drama. Even if you don't want him losing out on drama, he knows he has you over a barrel and that needs to change now.

You call the shots and you can use what he loves to do that

I wonder how many people on here showing empathy about his acting out extend this tp
kids they see in their own children’s class, or are they the parents of the disrupters. Because both my kids classes no parent seemed happy hearing about the same kids disrupting the class. I can imagine it’s magnified when you’re paying for it.

I’d certainly take him out as unauthorised absence to do the play, if his current school decide not to invite him back for Y11 and he switches school AND possibly switches his GCSE options it may well be the making of him. It’s ok if he dances to a different drum, he just needs to learn that charm and good manners work much better than the alternative.

It’s not a high bar to expect a child of mid teens to shut up and move when asked. It’s done up and down the country by thousands of kids much younger and less happy than this lad is.

his dad having a preference of schooling & wanting his lad to try hard and do well isn’t a unique phenomenon, to want your child to put more effort in everything they do isn’t set up for failure. Allowing him to put all his eggs in one basket where the failure rate is high and the pay poor for anything less than box office or tv hits is though, I think the dad without knowing him has had a backlash that’s simply not justified because he values academic success. Knowing your son can achieve more but is unwilling is frustrating. He hasn’t actively stopped his son pursuing his dreams & even if he raised an eyebrow at the choice which may question his sons sexuality doesn’t make him homophobic, it may just mean his concerned about what that life will look like for his son. Being gay isn’t easy even today.

as for doing well and being punished with more school being a reason to be an asshole not only to his teachers but his peers is a poor excuse. Pandering to such nonsense now will not equip him when much bigger trials and tribulations with much more serious consequences comes his way. His boredom and dislike for something doesn’t mean he gets to spoil it for others who by the way probably are being pressured by their parents. This lad isn’t living in perpetual fear or lashing out. The excuses he uses are always self serving. They don’t like me anyway, the teachers won’t change towards me. With mom stating these excuses like they legit. It sounds like when he says this it shuts down conversation. He’s received one punishment of missing 1 drama class and the mom spoke like the dad lack of empathy was the problem. No it’s not. It’s a punishment the whole point is he doesn’t like it, a taste of his own medicine

Maybe the school are refusing he has three days off, guessing he will take them off anyway, therefore giving them an extra excuse to exclude him.

It does seem counter productive however. the one thing he is good at & applies himself to, they are trying to veto.
What do they imagine his comportment will be like after that?

I would let him do it, I would move his school, but I would also tell him, that even to get into acting school, he will need his education & certificates to get accepted, so to stop being a fool. He is capable, even if he doesn't enjoy school, (who does ?) he needs to just put up with it. Wait it out
Its a building block to get to where he wants to be.

I know you say no SEN, but from what you are saying I would look into it OP. It sounds an awful lot like ADHD and he is clearly drowning at school.

That said, just let him have the 3 days off and deal with what happens afterwards. You have proof you tried to go down official channels and they said no. This is clearly an important opportunity for him. Sometimes you have to back the school, sometimes you have to back your child, this time you back your DS.

I did the ADHD questionnaire someone posted and for section A he got 4 and section B he got 7
Out of interest, did your DH do it?
From what you have posted, it would be worth considering if DH is neurodivergent along with DS.

It's been explained multiple times on the thread why she has zero option to do this.

Have you considered scheduling a meeting with the Head and with your DS. Where DS would make a pitch, this is what I want to do as a career, please support me, with promises of more cooperative behaviour (which he would then have to live up to).

OP, if you’re still reading, I just wanted you to know that many, many teenage boys go through this sort of difficult and rebellious stage at his age. Many much worse than your son.

Keep supporting to him, keep talking with him, keep him feeling that he is loved and that you’re on his side even if you disapprove of his actions or disagree on things.

If you can’t resolve the school issue and it ends up that he can’t do the production, commiserate with him and let him know very clearly that you care about his passion for drama and you will help support it in another way. Tell him he’s got great potential and even if his path in life ends up differently to his brothers, that’s doesn’t mean it’s not the right path. Reiterate, however, the importance of education as ‘buying him choice’ and as a good insurance policy.

I love the way you twisted my post.