School refusing 3 days off for DS AIBU

[BaronPencil]

I suspect I am going to get flamed for this but I genuinely do not know what the right call is.

DS is 14, 15 in the summer, and he hates school. Not in a mild way, he actively resents it. Says it is pointless, says most of the boys mess about anyway but he gets picked up more because he answers back. There is probably some truth in that but he absolutely does not help himself.

He is basically on his last warning behaviour wise. We have had meetings with head of year and deputy head. They have used phrases like final chance, serious concerns about attitude, risk of not being invited back next year if there is no improvement. So yes, thin ice is putting it mildly.

Behaviour issues include:

Constant low level disruption
Talking when teacher is talking
Refusing to move seats when asked
Eye rolling and muttering under his breath
Not handing homework in repeatedly
Detentions for not turning up to detentions
Once told a teacher “this is why no one takes this subject seriously”

There was also an incident last year where he made some stupid misogynistic comments in class about girls being “too emotional” for leadership which got him into a huge amount of trouble. He swears he was joking but it was not funny and I was absolutely furious with him. School took it very seriously. Since then they have him firmly labelled as a problem child I think.

He is not SEN. There is no diagnosis, no learning issue. He just does not like being told what to do and he is not a straight A academic star which I sometimes think is what this particular school really values above everything else. He is capable of good grades but only when he feels like it which is not often.

The only area where he has ever been consistently positive is drama.

He got into acting at 12 through the school drama club. Completely by accident really, a friend dragged him along. He got a part in the school production and something just switched. Teachers were emailing saying how focused he was in rehearsals, how supportive of other cast members. It was like reading about someone else.

We then enrolled him in a local theatre group and he loves it. Properly loves it. He will practise accents in his bedroom, watch performances online, ask for feedback. It is the only thing he puts real effort into without being nagged.

Now he has been cast in a proper local theatre production. Rehearsals are evenings and weekends so that has not interfered with school at all.

But the performances include three weekday matinees in the last week before Easter holidays. So he would miss three full days right before they break up.

His attendance is currently 95 percent. But he is absolutely on his last warning behaviour wise.

I emailed school explaining the opportunity and asking if the absence could be authorised given it is a legitimate production and not just a random day off. I did mention that drama is the only area where he truly excels and that this could be positive for him.

Reply was very clear. No authorised absence for external activities. Policy is policy. If we keep him off it will be recorded as unauthorised absence and may be considered alongside his existing behaviour record.

I did ask whether there was any discretion given it is the last week before holidays and most of the academic content is winding down (yes I know that sounds dismissive). They said learning continues until the final day and expectations apply to all pupils equally.

DS’s view is blunt. He says acting is the only thing he is actually good at and the only reason he bothers trying at anything. He says if we make him miss it we are proving that school matters more to us than he does. He also says school already think he is a lost cause so what difference will three days make.

Part of me thinks he has not exactly earned special favours given his attitude. If anything he should be bending over backwards to show compliance right now not asking for time off. I can already hear people saying natural consequences and maybe that is fair.

But another part of me thinks if the one thing that genuinely motivates him is acting then why would we squash that, especially when school itself introduced him to it in the first place.

We pay a lot for this school because we wanted structure and high standards. I just did not anticipate feeling like the only area my son shines would be treated as irrelevant.

So AIBU to think they could show flexibility even though he is on his last warning and hardly model pupil of the year? Or is this exactly the kind of situation where the answer has to be no because of his behaviour record.

I agree with you

OP, I'm echoing what lots of other people have said. Please check with the Local Authority as to whether a licence is needed. There is no point in assuming DS might be able to participate without clarifying the situation. If you check with them, and then liaise with the production, you'll know whether things are even possible.

Licences are not dependent on whether it is term time, weekdays, weekends or school holidays, or whether a child is being paid or not, or whether a child is state, private, flexi or home-educated. Other factors are also involved and it's the law. Adult production companies do not always realise their legal obligations around child actors, or even that they have cast a teenage actor who is still of licensing age. Is your DS the only child in the production or are there others?

Licences cover things such as the number of consecutive performances allowed in a fixed period of time (this may also include technical and dress rehearsals); chaperone provision; record-keeping of hours worked, days off and breaks/mealtimes; suitable changing facilities (eg male and female dressing rooms, with children separate from adults); how the child gets to and from the venue; the licence being available for inspection at the theatre etc. A child in a professional theatre setting should not be left unsupervised. Even when they are on stage a chaperone will be in the wings. Some busy LAs have longish lead times to put licences in place and don't look kindly on last minute requests. It may also take time to find a chaperone who is available to work those dates.

Over several years when my own children were doing professional acting jobs, I was employed as a registered chaperone both for them and for other people's children. I've dealt with councils' spot checks on productions, and witnessed refusal to allow a child (fortunately not mine) to perform at a West End first night because of their licence being late in coming through in time. In one London production a check-up visit from the LA forced the theatre to rearrange the changing room arrangements for children. At the start of a short run at our local regional theatre where someone else was chaperoning my almost 16-year-old, I had to sign paperwork to allow my child to walk a mile home on their own after matinee performances rather than me collect them.

You need to get the licence question sorted asap if the production starts the week before Easter.

there are performance art oriented private schools, have you considered that?

I think your DH needs a reality check, he’s flogging a dead horse. Your DS may eventually go to uni as a back up plan but forcing him now into this idea is not going to lead to anything.

But I'm afraid this just cements the idea that he can behave however he likes, and still sail through acting.

The thing is, that with his underlying attitude to the world he will eventually come a cropper in the theatre world. He may get a job, but if his behaviour is as his mother says overall, it'll be his first & last job.

Clearly, there are deeper issues here: the school looks like a bad fit.

But if you're already buying his education, maybe look into a performing arts high school? The Brit school is not the only one! ArtsEd runs several high schools, and there are others. The discipline will be tougher ...

This is all on your Dh.

My father did this to my brother. Forced him to go to a private school he hated. Pushed him to do hobbies that he didn’t want to do. Made him go to uni against his wishes. Told him he was ungrateful.

Every choice my brother has made in life, from car and house purchases to career choices, have been wrong in his eyes. He’s still doing it to this day, when my brother is in his fifties. It never stops.

My poor brother has had a lifetime of feeling judged, never living up to expectations and carrying the weight of our father’s disappointment. It led to him acting out in his youth, not putting in the effort he was capable of, resentment when he caved to pressure, and a strained relationship as an adult.

Your dh needs to stop it right now, and actually see who his son is and listen to what he wants. He is not an extension of himself. He is pushing a square peg into a round hole, and that is why you are where you are.

As school said, there is not a change in whether absences are authorised or not in relation to end of term.

Why can't you just say he will not be in school as he will be at the theatre production and accept that it will be an unauthorised absence? I see you say it'll count against him along with his other behaviour, when you say "last warning" what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about permanent exclusion or a suspension? In our state school we avoid both of these as far as we can but is that different in your private school? The permanent exclusion sounds pretty harsh in this circumstance and a suspension would be mad as it's rewarding

If he hates it that much does he care if this decision means he will need to move to a state school? But then am I leaping to conclusions that that's the consequence of the unauthorised absence?

Also, as an aside, have you spoken with the local theatre company about the absolute ball ache that taking him out of school is? When I've worked for theatre and dance companies and arts venues and we've had things that need time off school (very, very rarely and a day / afternoon AT MOST for an evening production) we as a professional arts organisation have provided contact information, letters, emails, context etc for the way that the experience links with the curriculum for Wales AND authentic real-world work experience.

It's poor planning to have matinee performances that require a school age child. Is this an amateur dramatics group or a community theatre group linked with a professionally run producing theatre company, theatre, or arts centre? I'd definitely talk with them because it would be wild if this is the first time this has happened and they need to know the stress that it has caused. Either so they don't cast younger people in future productions or they programme them for school holidays or they do evening performances only with potential for matinees on weekends.

As you've seen, that kind of flexibility is often a privilege and your son needs to understand that he's responsible for that.

I've seen other people mention that they'd not stand for his behaviour. Most of what you describe is pretty low level and one offs or minor incidents wouldn't be cause for concern but I get the impression that it's consistent. It could be that the school is far more rigid and strict than suits your child's needs and character and that he'd do better somewhere which works with him not against him, that channels his energy in a positive way rather than a more old fashioned approach.

It sounds like he's focused and hard-working in theatre at the moment. He clearly cares about it. He might well slip into bad habits and will get short shrift and quick consequences, but since he actually cares, they might actually have an impact.

Sorry. Deleted my post as I hadn't read all of your subsequent posts..

i support DS.

This is about DS. Not his Dad or brothers. He's not them. He's an individual

I have to go out now so can't fully read or reply. But support your DS. Not history x

@BaronPencil you haven’t given him everything because you haven’t given him the one thing he needs

to be treated and looked at as an individual. Not as his older brothers, not as an extension of your DH, and not as the son you wanted or expected to have.

because all of the decisions are based on expectations and needs of a child you don’t have

Your DH has given him nothing close to what he needs - acceptance of who he is not told he needs to be a man (whatever that means and is probably a toxic definition anyway)

dropping out of school now will harm his future chances more than help them given how the performing arts in the UK are dominated by people with private education and degrees. Very hard for a teen to see that of course. Ask him to research the trajectory of actors he admires and see how the majority studied drama or went to a university with brilliant facilities for putting on performances even if drama isn't a degree there.

I would be unhappy with the amdram group for building up his hopes without duing their due diligence first. When you let them know that school will not agree the absence, could you ask them to support your son's mental health by assuring him he will not be excluded from future productions that he is available for?

As for your DH, he sounds a problem here. Not seeing who his DS is but seeing him for what he expects him to be. Does he want to continue to make his son feel like a failure or does he want to encourage him in what he is clearly good at even though it is outside of your DH's life experience? Sounds like DH was lucky that he had 2 older sons who did fit into the old school tie etc so this challenge is only now coming up. He needs to face the challenge now and be more flexible.

Interesting that your DS outburst about women was around emotions. Might he have been projecting shame around his own emotional confusion? Are emotions "allowed" around your DH? Acting is somewhere that one explores and expresses and experiments with emotions. Don't let him make your DS "wrong" for having a different temperament to him and his brothers.

My DP told me a story about about an actress who when she was a young girl was considered to have a learning issue. This was before we knew about ADHD. She ended up being a choreographer for CATS and a very successful dancer and multimillionaire. Heres the video

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dewkj80G4as

The point being is that school and academia is not for everyone. It sounds to me like your DH wants all his DS's to follow as he did, but that isn't right for your DS. I am not condoning your DS's bad behaviour as he does need to realise that sometimes we have to do things we don't like in life and get on with it, however I do think he should do the show and I do think he should go to a different school. An independent schools main concern is it's academic results.

He loves the theatre and that should be encouraged.

You're basically describing a child I had in my drama classes for the last few years.

They're at Uni now - drama school. And they're a fantastic young adult. Drama got them through the rough patch and opened a door to conversations about everything else, and now they're flying. Yes, they're still capable of being a pain - what 18 year old isn't sometimes, but they've learned.

Because they cared about being my classes and productions, it gave a route in that meant they'd listen (sometimes!)

All this to say, I'd absolutely have him honour his commitment to the theatre, if you can - if he needs licencing the school may block it although I would have thought they'd have applied for that already. I wouldn't see it as rewarding 'bad' behaviour, but as meeting him where he is and keeping hold of your one carrot.

Previous posters aren't wrong - his attitude and behaviour won't be tolerated in theatres, but that's a pathway in to tackling it - his misogyny, for example, - how does he expect any actress to trust him as a scene partner if they know he doesn't respect them?

Oh, and yes, I'd look again at ADHD - it was a feature, and I know a lot of 'creatives' with missed or late diagnosis.

Phew x

1. He sounds like a pain in the arse and clearly has no boundaries and fears no repercussions from you.
2. Why would you actively force your child to attend a private school (and worse, pay!) when it's clearly not the right fit for him?
3. He clearly needs nurture. Do you spend anytime with him? I would say his pain in the arse behaviour is a cry for attention. Paying for an expensive school is not giving attention to a child.

My advice - pull him out, send him to a decent state school. Spend some of the money you'll be saving on things he actually enjoys and spend some time with him.

Oh. and this 100%,

He sobbed missing theatre well that is your punishment. You relented as he knew you would. You are paying for his theatre group so it’s a privilege that you allow. It’s irrelevant that it may progress into a career. It may well not be and it’s a gamble to take. The failed actor troupe you see in stories in tv and film is one for a reason. Talent isn’t enough to make it. We have many a successful actor with no talent at all. It’s a luck game, it’s luck if you’re spotted. This theatre work may result into nothing more than a hobby. An expensive one at that to. I wouldn’t downplay his talent & dreams but you can portray that it’s a path that without your help isn’t available to him so you demand he shows appreciation and respect for you enabling him to pursue. What more can you give this kid. He is privately educated, he has the support to follow his dreams and yet he is not grateful. You can’t give him a better start to life. Why does he want to be an actor? Is it actually the acting he wants or the adulation that comes with it? You need to nip this in the bud because he will grow into a full grown narcissist if you don’t.

It isn't an amateur production, it's a proper one at the theatre that's ticketed to the general public. And its not part of his theatre group. They have applied for his license but they haven't got it back yet that I know of, DS isn't the only child but is the only under 16, there's 2 16 year olds and they have been helpful to DS as they have performed before. I think usually his part would go to someone slightly older but DS met all the casting requirements and then auditioned and got the part. It isn't a main role but it is a good part especially for his first one. There will be a chaperone and he's organised his script and has been working hard

Honestly, it sounds like you need a sit down talk with your husband more than anything. Discuss the elephant in the room, that DS isn't going to want to go to standard uni, but may want to attend a performing arts university/conservatoire. Perhaps if DS is encouraged to follow that path, then you can sit him down & explain that you will support him, but in order to get in somewhere like that, he's still going to need to pass his GCSEs, and have a good attendance & behaviour record, which might give him the right motivation to get where he wants to go? Could you look at local performing arts colleges to give him a taste of what he could be working towards?

Is it a professional performance? If so he'll get a licence to provide to the school to authorise the absence.

They have applied for his license but they haven't got it back yet that I know of

@BaronPencil , have you completed Part 2 of the license form?

The production fills in Part 1 (which has all the details re rehearsal and performance dates, chaperoning arrangements, etc) and submits the application. The application isn't complete unless you have sent them Part 2 and a letter of permission from school on headed paper, so if you haven't done these things the production won't have been able to apply for a license.

Some LEAs send parents a copy of the license, some only send it to the production, so you don't always know a license has been approved until the production tells you.

Have you told the production he needs to miss school? If the production dates fall within school holidays in that LEA, they may be assuming he is also on holiday.

It's the other way round. School has to approve the absence in order for the license to be issued. The LEA can choose to override the school if they think school is being unreasonable but they don't have to.

He could still go to Uni, but for performing arts.

Personally, I would let him participate, Imagine if school kicked him out anyway and he had lost this opportunity.

If this really is his passion, could you send him to a performing arts school, something like Tringpark,, they do GCSE’s and A levels but the focus really is on performing arts. I know they won’t accept mid GCSE, because we looked at it around that time, but he could redo Y10.

From their blurb.

“Academic Curriculum

With a focus on ensuring our pupils achieve their full potential at GCSE level and are able to progress to the best universities, conservatoires, drama schools or the world of employment when the time comes for them leave us.

Compulsory subjects are English (language and literature), maths and science (double or triple). Pupils also choose three additional subjects from the following options: dance, drama, geography, French, Spanish, art, history, triple award science and music.”

https://www.tringpark.com

My apologies, my daughter did it a few years ago and I'm misremembering the process.

I think your DS is responding to feeling like the youngest, least academic boy in the family who isn't into the "manly" sports like rugby, probably won't go to uni and doesn't have a good relationship with his Dad. He plays the clown because he has low self-esteem and doesn't know how else to get attention. Yes, you can let him know it's unacceptable and give consequences but none of that will fix the root cause.

I'd want to move heaven and earth to get him to do the performance. I'd accept it'll be unauthorised then deal with the fallout with the school.

I'd also want to speak to state schools near you and see what options he would be able to do for GCSEs. You say he probably wouldn't be able to do his options but you don't know that for sure. If he's looking at failure currently then anything is better than doing nothing. I'd also speak to him in a really open and adult way and really really listen to what he has to say about where you go from here. A come to Jesus type talk. He will need some GCSEs to progress in acting. Would he be happier in a state school? You could go and look round some schools to see. It sounds like he's so disengaged from school now that a move (preferably ASAP) could actually help.